C-4 trans pan sealing

[Sedanman]

I asked about this on the Ford six forum, and the answers are so varied I can't decide what way to go - here's the thread;

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=58600

Any more suggestions? I'm tired of redoing this every couple thousand miles..

T

[redfalken]

Mine has a cork gasket with no sealer and doesn't leak (around the pan anyway). I think I may have something leaking elsewhere though. Maybe the front seal.

Is the Scott Drake pan sheet metal? I think that thread covered about every trick in the book but I've always found if it's sheet metal, you have to peen the area around the bolt holes back out each and every time you reinstall. Makes a big difference.

You could also try getting a fine grit stone they use for honing knives and run that around the surface of the case where it meets the pan to make sure it's good and smooth. I did that to my valve body before I installed it and you would be surprised at how many factory defects there are. If you have a straight edge, check the pan and the case to see if anything strange is going on.

After the new seal is installed, clean everything off real good and go get a can of spray on athlete's foot powder. Spray it around where the pan meets the case and go for a ride. Then see where it's leaking if it still is. A common leak spot is where the dipstick tube goes into the case and that might run down along the pan edge, making you think the pan seal is leaking.

[Sedanman]

Yeah, it's a steel pan - I couldn't find stock depth aluminum pan at the time, although some of the guys now are saying there is such a thing. Car's too low for a deep pan...

I know my servo cover on one side is leaking just a tad, but not enough to cause what's going on now. Some of the F-6 guys are suggesting a heavy duty aviation gasket sealer, so I may put that on the pan side before installing. They swear it doesn't leak, but is a pain to scrape off when time to change fluid again so I won't put it on the trans side where there's soft aluminum to avoid scraping on later.

Thanks for the reminder about the dipstick tube - that's easy enough to replace while the trans is drained; Much harder later ;0)

[BadBird]

Talked to my brother who has worked on these for years. He says the sealant is the way to go. Wouldn't it solve a lot of problems about scraping off the sealant if you have a pan with a drain plug? Not sure.

[redfalken]

The recommended interval to change tranny fluid is every 30,000 miles. That's probably 4 or 5 years for me and I drive 25 miles round trip every weekday to work. How often do you drive your Falcon?

If your car's sitting low already, I wouldn't want a drain plug sticking down that could hit something and tear a hole in the pan. I'd say use sealant if that solves your problem, plan on spending an hour or two cleaning off sealant every 10(?) years, and be done with it.

[Sedanman]

Black Falcon - the drain plug only makes it easier to drain; You still have to pull the pan to change the filter.

Kenny - Yeah, I've been there with the drainplug issue on my first falcon; Funny thing is, I sold the car, and that pan with the ruined plug ended up on the trans I bought for this car from one of the old club members over ten years ago! You're right about the fluid change intervals, but I figure trans fluid is like motor oil (maybe I'm wrong) that with age there are more contaminants so if you don't drive it much you still need to change it. But I've never had a leak free trans for that long....

[Luva65wagon]

Not sure why I didn't see this thread -- but tranny pan gaskets should not need to be sealed at the tranny. Typically all I've ever done is:

a) make sure the pan is flat. If it's sheetmetal, then the bolt-holes get deformed when you tighten the bolts. So out with the hammer and dolly to make sure these are knocked back out flat again.

b) apply permatex (I use the black 2b stuff, with seems best for in-oil applications) only to the pan side and adhere the gasket to that. The main reason for this is when you want to drain the fluid you will curse the day you glued that pan on tight and have to pry it off while it's getting all warped and you're red with fluid all over you.

c) The gasket is cork and/or rubber. Don't over-tighten it. Just snug is best. The number one reason for leaks here is from over-tightening.

d) Make sure the tranny surface is cleaned and bolt the pan on as mentioned in c - just snug.

e) as for any other gaskets -- seal away. They only need ever be removed during more serious servicings, so only make sure the sealant doesn't goop inside.

I've done maybe 50 pan-gasket changes so far and rarely does anything leak. Things may seep over time, but this usually means just to snug the bolts up again. Eventually this will, again, deform the pan and it's time for the change again.

As for oil going bad, it is heat that oxidizes oil, not time as much. If you don't drive much you could probably go 5 years without changing it -- maybe more. If the oil still looks and smells good -- it is good. You can smell rancid oil.

That's my 2 1/2 cents, with inflation.

[Sedanman]

Hi Roger,

I've continued to get many varied answers at the Ford six board; Had decided cork was the best way to go, but can't find one anywhere - the filter kits come with rubber which I've had worse luck with. I got some of the Permatex Avaition sealer to put on the pan side of the gasket, as it dries hard and won't squeeze in and clog up the valve body. The last time I put it together it was a brand new pan with a rubber gasket, so who knows why it leaked.

Things have been delayed, though. I was planning on applying my POR 15 engine paint today, only to read that the directions say " wait 4-6 days before starting engine". So much for the car show I was doing this for on Sunday :( I also found out when I called POR that the exh manifold needs to be sand blasted first, so that wil be next week's project. Hopefully I get to drive this before end of summer...

[Luva65wagon]

Well, don't know why there should be so many answers. It's not as though it is rocket science or anything. But everybody has
"their way" of doing things, I guess.

As for cork versus rubber, I've used both with equal success. Was this an aftermarket pan or a stock pressed steel pan? Some Chinese chrome thing, maybe? Was the gasket surface like a stock pan with the troughs between the bolts holes, which are there to allow the gasket to press in and stay put? Maybe you should bring it to the tech day and we can have a look at it and see what the heck is going on.

[Sedanman]

Just see the link I posted - people have used different types of gaskets, stacked gaskets, different kinds of sealant, different kinds of pans (steel vs. aluminum) etc. I got my Scott Drake pan at Bel Kirk Mustang - now that I have it off I can see there needs to be some minor flattening of the flange, but that is probably due to my tightening it more when it started to leak. Don't see any "troughs" to speak of - I guess I need to poke around the forum and find out when tech day is ;)

[Luva65wagon]

I had decided to do that just after I posted the last time. In all, most of the ideas were echoing mine with a few exceptions of the guy with an aluminum pan and "paper" gaskets and those using only sealant and no gaskets. Some used rubber without issue, but so have I. The aviation sealant I've never used (not sure how it's better, really) but it may be similar to the 2B Permatex I use in cases like this.

Anyway, lot's of opinions, but how many have changed more than 10, or 20 filters -- much less upwards of 50? No evidence from what I read, but there may be a few. I was never taught "no sealant" from the masters, but I agree you ought not use so much that it oozes into the tranny and gums up the works. That's just poor mechanic'ing. Still -- even that would require a lot of sealant.

I'd avoid anything silicone based for oil bath applications. Never seems to seal for me. In fact it often seems to induce leaks.

I can assure you, if you come to the tech day, we'll seal that pan with no leaks. Assuming of course the pan is good. Not sure about the Drake pan.

Also... I sort of blur over such details as this, but I'm pretty sure the stock pans are not 100% flat between bolt holes -- as neither are engine pan surfaces. It's been about 10 years since I "gave up" doing services like this for people (have only done 2 in that period), so I can't recall exactly whether all pans do have these troughs. But it's like riding a bike for me and would likely forget I ever changed yours 6 years from now... :o

[falcon cobra]

Well I'am not sure why the scott drake pan, all that stuff is made in china, thats why it's not like the kind ford made for years that still work today. and if it's chrome thats worse, my freind kelly [ kellys transmissions ] has been rebuilding trans's for 40+ years and use's cork,and no sealer and if they all leaked he would have been out of a job years ago...just think what did the factory do.... john h:confused:

[Luva65wagon]

I did an image search on the web seeing if I can see any examples of what I mean about troughs. I see them on just about every stock pan but the C4 (at least those I saw) -- so maybe the stock C4's didn't have them. Again, the memory's the first to go and I can't remember the other thing. But regardless of that I did find a lot of places indicating the availability of cork gaskets, which would more easily compress and conform than rubber would.

As for chrome, it doesn't bode well to anything sticking to it, including gasket sealer -- and being like glass can allow weeping of fluid past it. Is this Drake pan chrome? Maybe that's an issue?

Most of the pans I saw in the aftermarket didn't look to be very high quality until you got into the cast aluminum pans, which would then be machined flat. Stamped pans may just not be very flat across the gasket surface and may also be dead-soft crap steel that too easily warps at the bolt holes.

I use sealer mostly only to hold things in place, since many gaskets get folded to fit into smaller boxes and don't lay flat without it. I use a very slight amount on the pan side only.

[Sedanman]

It's a painted pan, not chrome; I could not find a stock depth aluminum pan at the time although I've just been told such a thing does exist. A couple people have suggested the aviation gasket sealer, so I'm going to use that on the pan side only like you are saying.

I did just realize I have an extra cork seal that came with my shift kit; The black composite type gasket that came with the filter at shucks was folded like you said, and the surface broken. Where are you seeing the cork gaskets available? (for next time) My new napa filter came with a rubber one.

[Luva65wagon]

Here's a few. Didn't have much time to search while at work:

http://broncograveyard.com/bronco/i-11101_c4_transmission_pan_gasket.htm

http://www.performancetransparts.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=149

http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=2&Category_Code=C-4gasket

http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/C4_C5_Transmission_gaskets_s/11598.htm

Another thread on leaky pan gaskets:

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/leaky-c4-pan-gasket-again-107991.html?

[Sedanman]

Thanks, Roger.