Engine Rebuild

[oldford63]

I have a 1963 170ci I6 that I am planning to rebuild completely. My goal is to add a little power over stock but keep the overall original stock look. I am not looking to race by any means, just want a little better performance so I can run an AC unit this summer. Do you guys have any suggestions where I might be able to get engine parts to accomplish this?
Thanks for your time,
Guy

[pbrown]

Start off my finding a good 200ci. It shares the same outside dimensions and will bolt right in where the 170 was. The 200 was very popular and was made all the way to 1983 so they are plentiful.

You can get stock rebuild parts from any auto parts store. You can get some aftermarket parts from www.classicinlines.com (http://www.classicinlines.com).

[Nathan289]

Don't forget Clifford performance as another source for speed parts..

Classic inlines makes an aftermarket aluminum cylinder head for the small sixes.. very cool and a little pricey.. $1500..

I would find a better cam, not too big though..
Go .030 on the pistons..
Mill the head .030 to compensate for the thicker head gasket..
Find a cylinder head from a 78 or so 200 or 250. These heads have the largest intake log, and the largest valves plus it should have hardend exhaust valve seats.
Get a header and upgrade the carb..

Nathan

[Jeff W]

I agree with the gang. 200 is the way to go! I will be soon replacing my 170ci with a rebuilt 200ci. I found a complete engine still connected to a C4 tranny on Craigslist for $150. Apparently it was running fine when it was pulled 5 years ago. even a standard Ford Engine Rebuild kit in the 200ci with stock parts would give as good or better performance than a slightly hopped up 170ci.

I'm going to just overhaul the bottom end and use my existing 170ci head for now. It was redone a short time ago. Eventually I'll find a newer head for all the reason stated byte other guys. That is easy to swap out later. Just trying to spread out my expenditures over a couple of years.

I find several bottom end rebuild kits on the net for around $450 if you don't want anything too fancy. That doesn't include a cylinder bore or regrinding on the crank. That would probably add another $150 to $200.

[redfalken]

I'd agree if you're going to put the time and money into something, get a later 200.

I have a `82 200 head I'm working on right now. Actually, it's on hold until I pay off a few things but I got most of the parts from Classic Inlines. I'll get headers when I install and work on the bottom end later.

I had a few things fixed by a cast iron welder and now I'm porting and polishing. My list of upgrades are:

- Oversized stainless steel valves (1.5" exhaust, 1.75" intake)
- Install hardened valve seats.
- Three-angle valve job (Top Cut: 30°, Valve Seat: 45°, Bottom Cut: 60°).
- Undercut intake valve 30° (do not undercut exhaust valves).
- Install bronze valve guides.
- Machine for teflon valve seals.
- Mill head .030 (57cc chambers, 8.1:1 CR).
- Mill exhaust port surfaces as needed.
- Mill carburetor base surface as much as possible to lower Weber.

[Luva65wagon]

Of course I agree with the group, but keep in mind that going post 65 I6 will have a different bell housing than the pre 66 stuff. So this would turn your engine rebuild into an engine and tranny swap.

The main reason for going to a 200 is the stronger block with 7, as opposed to 5, main bearings. If you don't want to do the tranny you can get a pre-66 200 (like I have) and it'll give you the strength of the 200 and same bell housing as what you have now.

That said you can build a very drivable 170 that's got a little more gitty-up if you want to keep it all stock, just consult the machine shop you're getting the parts from, or contact Clifford.

[Nathan289]

A 1966 200 block would be drilled for both bellhousings..

My 68 170 block is drilled for both bellhousings and it has 3 freeze plugs which would still make it a 4 main block.. Weird huh??

Nathan

[oldford63]

Hey guys,
I did some investigating and found out my 1963 170 ci has 1.522 intake and 1.266 exhaust valves. But between 1964 to 1972 both the 170 ci and the 200 ci had 1.649 intake and 1.380 exhaust valves.

Do you guys know if the 200 ci heads for 1964 were intergrated or not?

Thanks for all of your inputs,
Guy

[pbrown]

Do you guys know if the 200 ci heads for 1964 were intergrated or not?


Are you referring to the intake log? All 200 heads have the cast intake log unless you are lucky enough to find an old Ausy version.

[Jeff W]

My book shows even the 250 has the integrated intake manifold log.
It also says the 144, 170, 200 and 250 are all interchangeable.

Interestingly, it mentions that the '72 to '75 Maverick 250 heads had a much wider casting o the top of the manifold allowing for a machine shop to mill a flat spot large enough to mount a larger 2 barrel carb without an adapter plate.

The Holy Grail, so to speak, is the '78 or later 200/250 head:
1) largest valves
2) hardened seats
3) smaller combustion chamber
4)Big volume in the intake log.

Now I need to find one of my own!

[oldford63]

Jeff,
I am still in the planning stage of my engine rebuild with a couple of more questions. Is 1978 the first year Ford heads had hardened seats? I am planning a trip to my local Junk Yard, (at my age that is what I have always called them), to see if I can find a 200 head for my 170 build up. Could you tell me what years are best to look for and how to tell what size I6 engine I am looking at? Casting numbers would be great, but any information that puts me onto the right cylinder head is good. Oh, one more question, when I do find a 200 I6 does it matter what Ford car (or truck) it comes out of? Man I cannot wait to get to the Junk Yard to see what I can see. Just writing about it gets me all fired up!
Thank you for your time,
Guy

[Jeff W]

I am not an expert but I can quote from books all day long.

One correction about the 72 - 75 Maverick head.. apparently you still need an adapter plate to mount the carb, but the wider flat spot give it a better option for more seating and/or metal removal for that bigger hole.

Before you make a trip to he yard or plan your rebuild, I would highly recommend purchasing "The Ford Falcon - Six Cylinder Performance Handbook" by David and Dennis Schjeldahl. Almost any Falcon supply house will sell it. It's less that $15.00 and worth every penny.

It says 78 was the first year of the hardened seats. You can add hardened seats to any year head, but if your head already has them... that's more money left for other goodies.

[Nathan289]

I have a 74 maverick 200 head with hardend seats.. But I'm pretty sure that car was from California, so maybe Ca cars went lead free first??

Any later year head would be an improvement over the orginal.. larger intake log and larger valves.. it's just that the 78 head had the best of everything..

Nathan

[Jeff W]

Nathan, I think I misread something or I had too much scotch last night. I just looked through the book again and I can't find where it states what year they started hardened seats. But is does say the '78 and later are the best choices. Thanks for making me check my work.

[oldford63]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the support. I am planning a trip to the yard next Monday. Do you guys know of any simple way I can tell if an engine is a 200 or not? My plans include a .040 over cylinder clean up, decking everything to get 9.0 compression, rebuilding the 200 head to match a Comp Cam kit. I am not sure wish one yet, K65-236-4 or K65-235-4. I am also not so sure of this but am currently giving it some thought, making a wooden piece to go from one to two carbs. I installed a 4-barrel on a Chevy 350 once and was able to buy a wooden spacer for it. My goal is to pep up my original engine while keeping the stock look. I am still woking out how to install the original air cleaner onto a two barrel carb. I am thinking of enlarging the bottem hole to accommidate for it, but am still not sure yet what I will do able that.

My first step is to find the right 200 head so any help with a simple way to tell if an engine is a 200 or not would be a great start. I realize my plans may be a little out of the ordinary but being a car guy I guess makes me a little crazy.

Thanks for the help,
Guy

[Nathan289]

200 or 250 are all the same head so it wouldn't matter as long as the year is right..

I doubt you'll find a 170 any year after 1970.. so just watch the casting numbers on the head..

C = 1960 the number that comes after would be the year..
so a c6 would be a 1966..
D= 1970
E= 1980

so if you want the golden head you would want a D8..

Nathan

[pbrown]

Get the newest head you can find. Ford continued to improve it throughout production.

[Jeff W]

The 144/170ci both have three(3) frost plugs on the side of the block.
The 200/250ci have five (5).

144/170/200ci have a three (3) bolt water pump.
250ci has a four (4) bolt water pump.

I don't know a good way to tell the 144 and the 170 apart.

Some of the later 200ci blocks (I'm talking 80's) have the starter in a different position. The heads are the same, jus beware if you are buying a block to rebuild.

[oldford63]

Thanks to all of you for your help. Having you guys to talk to is the best resorce I have.

I can't wait to get out to the junk yard Monday. It will be ok even if I cannot find what I need because that will only mean I will get to go back. There is something about that place, just walking through it makes me feel wonderful. Even if I do score it will be a while before I can get started.

The contractors are breaking ground on my new shop today. The crew should be here at ten o'clock. Having a shop in my back yard has been a life long dream of mine. Now that I am over 50 I am finally realizing that dream. My Dad had a shop in our back yard when I was a kid and he and my uncles built hot rods and fixed the family cars back there. They worked on cars, drank Dixie beer, and played Hank William on the turn table.

Hope you guys don't mind me going on,
Guy

[Jeff W]

If you were closer you would have all of us drinking beer in your new shop and giving you pointers, arguing about which electronic ignition system is best. Sounds like some great memories.

[redfalken]

... They worked on cars, drank Dixie beer, and played Hank William on the turn table.

"There's a tear in my beer...."

Sounds like a dream come true to me! I like the city life but somedays wish I had a nice shop with plenty of room to work on my projects.

[falcon cobra]

Well I hate to tell you this but for years my falcon sat in the rain,then I made it fit in my old garage, had to make it longer to cover the back end. then years later I built a 3 car garage thats 26x32, for the falcon, the PT cruiser and the 85 svo that I have, with a gas furnace, tv, stereo,computer, lights,and a old carpet on the floor. it's almost like home, falcons are always welcome to come by to bench race or just chat...john h:rocker:

[oldford63]

The crew dug out three sides for the footers and put all the boards up for the cement. They will not be back till Monday because of the holiday weekend. The shop will be 24x28. I have already started inviting friends over to wrench (and drink a few) on their rides when my shop is done. I sure wish we had a Falcon club over here!

On with my engine rebuild plans. I have been thinking about the 1-barrel 2-barrel issue. Instead of trying to make a 2-barrel fit with the stock 1-barrel air cleaner I am thinking of using a 1-barrel carb off of a 250ci engine. The 1-barrel from a 250ci engine should flow more CFM than the 1-barrel off my 170ci. Does anyone know CFM specs for these carbs or if the carbs are even interchangable?

What do you guys think? Hey, I know some of my ideas are crazy so if this is a crazy one just yet me know. Am I barking up the wrong tree or will this give me the flow I need to feed a 200 cylinder head?

Thanks for you time,
Guy

[Jeff W]

Source: "The Ford Falcon - Six Cylinder Performance Handbook"

YF Carter: 1967 - 1979 (rated @ 150 CFM on 170ci and 187 CFM on 200ci)

RBS Carter: 1970-1972 - 250ci engine rated at 215 CFM

Autolite 1100 had three different models used on 144,170,200. The 250 used a 1101 and rated at 210 CFM

The larger base on 200/250 carbs would require adaptation to use on earlier heads. Look for the larger bore hole found on newer heads.

Kenny has had good luck with his two barrel and using his adapter plate.

[Luva65wagon]

You really ought to look at Kenny's setup for his carb. He did a really nice job on it. I think he may have links on his site. I think... I guess I should have looked first.

OK - I looked -- no pictures. Kenny, you should take some pictures. Pictures are good.

[oldford63]

Thanks for the tips. I just ordered "The Ford Falcon - Six Cylinder Performance Handbook", but it has not come yet. I will let you know what I find at the yard next Monday.

Guy

[oldford63]

Well I went to the junk yard today and asked if there were any Fairmounts. They had four, a 1978, two 1982 and one 1983. The first row sixth car was the 1978. And yes I scored, I could not believe I scored big time. I got the head, the valve cover, the fan and pully. Thinking ahead about AC. I threw the exhaust maniford on the ground, it had so much SH*T on it I could not believe it. I took all of the head and maniford bolts and some of the AC brakets. It all cost me $80, and I walked out smiling. While I was working to free my bounty from the 78 engine bay a guy walked by and said, "man you are realy going after it". I guess he could see how happy I was. I found a 3/4ton drum and was using it to stand on and get high enough to work comfortably. The head and every thing else I scored is resting in my garage. I sware, I love that place! I'm going to pull the head apart and bring it to the machine shop.
Will keep you posted,
Guy

[redfalken]

...OK - I looked -- no pictures. Kenny, you should take some pictures. Pictures are good.

Got the pictures (tons of pictures thanks to the digital camera age) but just haven't got them on my website yet! I'll post a few below. It's a little different now but just tweaks.

I REALLY want to get my cylinder head finished this year and then I'll get some notes and pictures on the web.

[oldford63]

Kenny,

Man I like the way you set up that 2-barrel. In that first picture, did you faburcate the bottem of your original air cleaner? Man, that is clean looking!

I am still not sure what I want to do about carbs yet. Still can't believe the 78 200 head I picked up yesterday. I may go with a 1-barrel off of a 200 or 250, or I might go with a 2-barrel.

Thats the beauty of limited funds, you have time to think about what your going to do next.

Guy

[Luva65wagon]

Kenny, that is clean. What adapter plate did you use again to get this to face forward and not sideways?

[redfalken]

The adapter is called a "Kenny Kustom". I just cut it out of some 3/16" (I think) iron stock and cut the hole with a bi-metal hole saw, drilled holes for the bolts, and did lots of grinding to clean it up.

It's basically a thin version of the adapter that came with the car. It was more like 5/8" think and had a vacuum port. Some have the ones that the heater hose hooks to for cold weather driving.

[Luva65wagon]

But isn't there something between the thin steel plate and the carb? Isn't the thin plate the thing pointing it forward where the adapter above didn't?

[redfalken]

Yea...sorry. That's a Stovebolt adapter. I cut off the two tabs at the bottom that aren't used and did a bit of porting/polishing. It was $15 and I think I paid $20 to have a machine shop mill the bases thinner.

Clearance is tight and I'm having the area on my manifold where the carb sits milled down as much as possible.

Also, don't use their gaskets. I made mine because the ones provided had slotted holes and caused a nasty vacuum leak.

[Luva65wagon]

[thumb]

That's very helpful. I'm thinking about trying this this summer.

[redfalken]

Here's a post for the adapter:

http://www.stoveboltengineco.com/acartpro/product.asp?productid=91

And a good (long) thread about the Weber on Ford Six:

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23153&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=weber+adapter&start=0

[Luva65wagon]

I've got a couple holley/weber carbs, I think, laying around needing rebuilt. May not be good, but I've not looked that close at them. Got them for the fast idle cam in case the one on my Mom's '80 Capri RS ever breaks again.

Thanks for the links Kenny.

[Sedanman]

Guy - keep in mind those later heads are lower compression, so you'll need to mill more off to get decent performance. The six perf. guide should help you with that. Oh, and you'll need either shorter pushrods or and earlier adjustable rocker assembly.

I've got a '69 head on my Falcon, and ordered an 1101 for a 250 for it from Pony Carbs. It wasn't cheap, but I'm not so good with fabricating and wanted a bolt on improvement. If I ever get around to pulling my head to have the broken exhaust bolts extracted and the head milled, I'll put it on and let you know how it works.

[oldford63]

Sedanman,

Thanks for the tips. I got the Inline six performance paperback and it is filled with a lot of good stuff.

I have put my engine rebuild on hold untill next month. I have just had a 24 x 28 foot slab poured for a garage in my back yard. Next Monday we will start the framing.

The very first project I plan on doing in my new shop is pulling that 170 out of my 1963 for the rebuild.

Somebody pinch me!
Guy

[Luva65wagon]

I ran out to look at the "barn find" 65 tudor wagon this weekend and a fellow named John was just leaving. I had my wagon there (in the rain) to show Mark Eaton (the owner of the other wagon) what one put together looks like. Anyway John was oogling mine and when he saw my carb he said it was worth something like $500! It's an Autolite 1101 as well. So what did you pay Thor?

oldford -- gotta love concrete... sometimes. Dragging an engine hoist around on the dirt is pretty yucky.:bicker:Good luck on the build(s)!