Scarebird Information

[Luva65wagon]

Hey folks,

I'm trying to wrap up the newsletter and I'm doing the tech article on the Scarebird disc-brake change we did for Gary. Can anyone here post the parts list they suggested? Gary, are you here yet?

[MacDee]

Roger,
I sent you the instructions we used with the parts list off line. Shall I go ahead and include the parts list here in the forum as well?

[Luva65wagon]

Roger,
I sent you the instructions we used with the parts list off line. Shall I go ahead and include the parts list here in the forum as well?

Gary, I have not been able to even check my home email for a couple days. Too much going on. But I'll look for those tonight as I'll be working more on the newsletter.

I would post the Scarebird information (as much as you can) so others who need it can get it can (outside our group of members). That's the good thing about a forum.

Hey - new smilies! :shift: :bicker:

[pbrown]

Go ahead and post it here to if you don't mind.

[MacDee]

I thought I could just paste in the instructions I got from Scarebird, but I see no way to paste in something from the clipboard. Can I not do that? :confused:

[pbrown]

Just press CTRL + V in the edit box to paste. This assumed you have Windows of course. This is a standard Windows paste method that will work in all your applications.

[MacDee]

I tried that but it didn't work. I tried again, but this time I copied wtih Ctrl-C instead of File/Copy. It worked:

Here are the instructions we worked from for the disc brake conversion:


1. Crack front wheel nuts loose, chock up rear wheels. Jack up front end of car, support crossmember with jackstands. Remove front wheels, drum/hub assembly. Put a few drops of penetrant oil on brake line nuts where they screw into rubber lines.

2. Take drum/hub assembly and remove drum by pressing out and discarding studs. Use a swedge cutter if possible. Clean off wheel surface and register with wire wheel or bead blaster. Machine outer edge of hub flange to fit inside rotor with about 0.010” loose fit. This is important, as it is what centers the rotor on the hub. Replace studs with ¼” longer or more studs, such as NAPA #641-1112 or Dorman #610-080.

3. Disconnect brake flexible line at frame by unscrewing hardline nut with flare wrench, then removing clip. Undo and remove drum retaining bolts. Remove drum backing plate, hose and all drum hardware in one assembly. Clean off spindle assembly well.

4. Place adapter plate over spindle with caliper bolt retaining nuts facing outward, and caliper opening to the front. Make sure no dirt is lodged between spindle and plate.

5. Check lug nut engagement depth. Do this by setting loose wheel face down on sawhorses. Lay rotor inside in assembled position, and then place wheel hub inside rotor. Look up at face of wheel, thread a pair of open lug nuts onto studs; studs should protrude thru lugnuts for safety. Also, verify that rotor lays flat against hub by fitting rotor backwards onto hub. If the stud knurls interfere with rotor, countersink stud holes in rotor to clear knurls.

6. Clean and repack wheel bearings. Install new seal. Assemble hub onto spindle, tighten outer nut to spec, then secure with keeper, new cotter pin and dustcap.

7. Place rotor onto hub, and run two or three lugnuts down finger tight to retain rotor. Wipe down rotor with alcohol, lacquer thinner or other cleaner to remove grease and oils.

8. Wash hands! Rotor must be squeaky clean.

9. Assemble pads into caliper, and slide assembly into caliper bracket, lube slide pins with silicone grease then screw in slide pins, tighten to 35 foot-pounds. Check fitment and rotate rotor to check clearance. Assembly should look as picture.

10. I used 1979-85 Cadillac Eldorado front hydraulic hoses; these were 17” long. Use a piece of rope to find the optimal length and routing for your application first. Install hose with new copper crush washers.

11. Master cylinder and proportioning valve specs are quite varied. I would recommend 1967-72 Mustang or similar disc master cylinder for best performance match available in both power and manual flavors. Or, simply use your existing master cylinder and plumb in an adjustable proportion valve in the line going to the rear cylinders.

12. Bench bleed disc master cylinder, mount on car, then bleed entire system and test.

13. Replace wheels, install lug nuts, lower car and torque nuts to spec. Test drive carefully- no hard stops, a series of smooth stops will help bed in the pads properly.



Here are the parts that we actually used:


Rotor (2)
1985-89 Nissan Stanza
85914

Caliper, LH
1983-89 Chevy Cavalier
242-2042

Caliper, RH
1983-89 Chevy Cavalier
242-2043

Hoses (2)
1979-85 Cadillac Eldorado
36959

Brake pads
1983-89 Chevy Cavalier
AE7070BM

Wheel studs (8)
NAPA
641-1112

Master Cylinder
1972 Mustang
47-36251


Deviations we made from these instructions and issues that came up during the installation:

In Step 2 of the instructions, it states that the hub must center itself in the rotor. There was actually a ring that was included in the Scarebird kit that fit between the outside of the hub’s bearing race housing and the inside of the center hole of the rotor that ensured the hub was centered in the rotor.

The new studs called for in Step 2 ended up being too loose in the holes left over in the hub after the original studs were pressed out. We actually ended up epoxying the studs into the holes with JB Weld. I would recommend that if they are epoxied in, the studs should be held in the holes during the cure by torquing up the lug nuts against a stack of washers to ensure the studs are completely seated and straight.

New dust caps for the six-cylinder hubs as recommended in Step 6 are hard to find. I'll need to get them from a specialty supplier, I guess. Until I get a round tuit, I'll make due with my existing battered ones.

The Cadillac Eldorado brake hoses suggested in Step 10 of the instructions fit PERFECTLY. There are brackets on the hoses themselves that need to be removed. We were able to unbend the tab that encircled the hose enough to pull the hose out. I think Roger had to get some banjo fittings (?) to mate the Cadillac hoses to the Cavalier calipers.

Scarebird.com has updated their web site instructions for the 4-lug Falcon installation and have included some of the pictures Kenny took. There is also a string on this installation on the FordSix.com forum that I contributed to with some more pictures.

[Luva65wagon]

The Cadillac Eldorado brake hoses suggested in Step 10 of the instructions fit PERFECTLY. There are brackets on the hoses themselves that need to be removed. We were able to unbend the tab that encircled the hose enough to pull the hose out. I think Roger had to get some banjo fittings (?) to mate the Cadillac hoses to the Cavalier calipers.


They were the banjo bolts needed to install the brake hoses to the calipers. These were, as I recall, the ones that were for the Cavalier, but it was a flurry at the time, so I can't exactly recall what Joe gave us. Can you find those numbers on the receipts (specifically, one of the ones I gave you)?.

[MacDee]

The receipt shows two "bolts" with part number 82703 at $5.65 for the pair. That must be them.

[Sedanman]

Gary,

This is a bit off the subject, but I totally forgot about the jack and jackstands! I still don't know about my moving situation, so you're welcome to bring them back if they are in your way (please call first) or if are still using them that's fine too as I don't have any projects planned in the near future. Or, maybe Roger need's to borrow them next!

[MacDee]

Thanks, Thor. They're not too terribly in the way; I could hang on to them for a while, bring them back or take them to someone else...whatever. I did use the jack to prop up my sagging front porch while I stuffed some rocks under one of the footings. :eek: Came in really handy!
Anyone else need to use a good floor jack and serious jack stands?

[pbrown]

Gary,

Were you able to keep your stock 13" wheels with the Scarbird disks? Someone on TFFN is asking and I wasn't sure.

[MacDee]

Gary,

Were you able to keep your stock 13" wheels with the Scarbird disks? Someone on TFFN is asking and I wasn't sure.

No. I had 14-inch wheels ready to go, but I tried the 13-inch just for kicks. They would not fit over the calipers.

That reminds me... I now have a set of 13-inch wheels mounted with nice 195/70-13 whitewalls for sale. I'll have to post them on the For Sale section.

[Luva65wagon]

Hey, does anyone know what the scoop is on getting the Scarebird parts? Do we just contact them, or do we all have to order them at the same time to get the discounted price?

[Luva65wagon]

Please? Does nobody know? Gary? Kenny?

[MacDee]

I swear I already replied to this once! Maybe I forgot to push the "do it" button....
Mark Janis told me he would give a discount to anyone on the Falcon List. I tried get clarification, thinking he meant to give a discount only to Rainier Falcons members, but he said he would give it to anyone on the list. I guess that means you just have to tell him you found out about Scarebird from the Falcon List (or now the Falcon Forum).
Just say that you heard he would give a discount to members of the Falcon Forum when you order.
For what it's worth, he was working on a design for custom hubs for the Falcon 4-lug kit because of the problems we had with mine. If that becomes part of the kit, I'd bet it will cost quite a bit more...

[redfalken]

Thanks Gary. I was intending to post something about that after the meeting but spaced it off.

I was just thinking, I wonder if Mark ever thought to have special lug bolts made that had a little bigger shank where it presses into the hub? I'm sure that 8 bolts would be less of a cost to get made then a pair of custom hubs. I'm sure there's some fabrication company somewhere that can produce a small batch (a few thousand).

[MacDee]

Thanks, Kenny! I'll put a bug in Mark's ear.

[pbrown]

There is a thread on TFFN where Mark was getting feedback on building his own hubs to eliminate the machining and lug nut problems.

http://www.tffn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10733

[Dan]

I believe there is a way to use your 13" wheels. I would contact scarebird. seems i saw something form them that said it would not work but there was a note. May require some mods.

[Dan]

This is probably ? for scarebird but thought I might throw this ? out too. Is there a disc brake combo that would allow me to also go from 4 bolt to 5 bolt on my 6 cyclinder falcon?

[pbrown]

This is probably ? for scarebird but thought I might throw this ? out too. Is there a disc brake combo that would allow me to also go from 4 bolt to 5 bolt on my 6 cyclinder falcon?

Yes there is.

http://www.abspowerbrake.com/AbsCatalogPag075.html

[61ranch]

What was the time you had involved in installing this kit? I am considering doing this kit on a couple of cars and wanted a rough time estimate so I can beg for garage time from my wife.

[MacDee]

What was the time you had involved in installing this kit? I am considering doing this kit on a couple of cars and wanted a rough time estimate so I can beg for garage time from my wife.

Well, we had a bunch of the guys from the club over to help. Roger did most of the work, and he's pretty efficient. I say all this because we actually got it done in one Saturday. The most time-consuming part was fabricating/modifying brake lines, and chasing fittings. As much as I tried to have everything ready to go, we still had to go out and search for parts during the day.

I think if I had tried to do this myself, it would have taken a month of weekends! Now that I've been through it once, I think I could do it myself in a couple of weekends...or maybe even just one.

If you do decide to try this, let me know. I could sure give you some tips, and I might even try to get over to help!

[Luva65wagon]

I agree with Gary. Have all the parts there and you could actually do it in a few hours. It's a pretty straight-forward kit. I detailed it in the last newsletter as well, so be sure to have a look at that. (Don't know for sure whether that newsletter is up in PDF yet, or not -- but it would be better to see it all in color if it is). You'll need another person there to bleed the brakes, unless like me you have a one-man bleeder handy. Just have the band-aids available when your bleeding.:rolleyes:

[61ranch]

Thanks for the info. I have the news letter article and went online to see Scarebird's instructions as well and think it looks pretty straight forward but I wanted to ask before I get neck deep.
Thanks again.

[Luva65wagon]

OK Folks... it's my turn to do this job on my car. I've ordered 90% of the parts and have the brackets from Scarebird already. If any of you have a spare set of front hubs you are willing to donate, I'll have mine available to donate as well when I've finished (and I'll even machine them so they are ready for the next candidate). I know somebody's got to have a set laying around (in an old set of front drums). Let me know. If you can't donate, name a price.

[pbrown]

Scarebird is now selling new hubs for this now. They are better as they don't have the issue with wheel studs and require no machining.

[Luva65wagon]

I know... I talked to him about those. I think he wanted a lot of money for them. Can't remember exactly the price, but I'll check again to see if it was worth it.

Weird thing just happened to me... I posted to the Parts Wanted section and after typing the message and submitting, I was "thanked" for posting, but the message wasn't posted. Poof! Gone. I'll try again, but that was really weird.

[Luva65wagon]

OK, never mind. I see we are "approving" messages now. I'll have two request now. Shoot.

[pbrown]

OK, never mind. I see we are "approving" messages now. I'll have two request now. Shoot.

We are moderating the classified section now due to all the spam. All the other forums operate as always.

[MacDee]

Roger,
I may have the original re-worked hubs we installed on my car (the ones with which we "staked" the studs). Mark Janis subsequently modified the hubs we took off and I have installed those.
If I still have those first ones, would you want them?

[Luva65wagon]

Absolutely! I didn't know you were running different ones. What did he do that was different? Me, I'll probably just use some JB Weld or something to just glue in the studs.

Let me know!

[MacDee]

He used JB Weld.
I'll go see if I can find them. They've been outside, but under a cover so they should be okay.

[Luva65wagon]

Gary,

Let me know if you find them and I can run up to your place and get them whenever you say is OK.

Thanks,

Roger

[MacDee]

Yeah, I found them, and they still look pretty good. I'll send you a message off-line to arrange a redezvous.

[Luva65wagon]

Gary,

Thanks for the delivery! Removed the old races and cleaned 'em up all ready to blast them. I'll have my old ones available for the next guy. :shift:

[Luva65wagon]

Well, as I mentioned in my other thread I realized as I was cleaning up the front end prepping for my own install there needs be the addition of the splash shields on the back side of these disc conversions. Failure to add these could allow grease from the front ball-joints and such to get on the back side of the rotor -- not good. So I headed out to the Pull-a-Part today and found the perfect shield to use in this setup -- late 70's Volvo front disc shields and bearing shields. All it took was a little trimming of the section where the caliper bolts up at and new holes to match the Falcon and the result is perfection. I'll feel a whole lot better now knowing I can grease my front end and keep any mishap off the rotors. The bearing shield also add the level of security if the wheel seal fails and lets grease leak past it. Here's preliminary pictures, I'll have more tomorrow after the paint dries.

[redfalken]

This is the first I've heard of adding the splash shields. Great idea! I'm looking forward to doing this conversion some day and will look into a pair for sure.

[MacDee]

Yeah! Gotta get me a pair of them Volvo shields!

[Sedanman]

Well, as I mentioned in my other thread I realized as I was cleaning up the front end prepping for my own install there needs be the addition of the splash shields on the back side of these disc conversions. Failure to add these could allow grease from the front ball-joints and such to get on the back side of the rotor -- not good..

Hmmm. Never thought of this before - I thought the purpose of the shields was to keep water off them. My dropped granada spindles did not allow use the the original shields, and Fatman does not mention any correction for this in the installation instructions.
Should I be concerned? :confused:

T.

[redfalken]

I wouldn't be concerned so much about water. I don't know for sure but I doubt much would keep water off the rotor when you're driving in a rain shower. I thought I sealed up my floor pans after some repairs and water sure has a way to find the leaks.

Probably more important to have them on to keep rocks and debris (grease included) out of the works.

[Sedanman]

It's been so long since I drove the car in the rain I'm not sure, but I seem to remember getting stuck in an unexpected downpour shortly after I did the swap and the car was pulling to one side, wich it doesen't do in dry braking. Since your floorpans are behind the front wheels they get a pretty good dousing - I can hear it in my car loud and clear as there's no undercoating.

Sound's like maybe I should be concerned about the grease and debris, although I'm flying too low to do drive on dirt roads (except the drive into Remlinger Farms for pumpkins last fall - now that was interesting!)

T.

[Luva65wagon]

OK, so I finished this up today and took it for a test drive -- love it! It was not without its unseen complications we didn't see on Gary's. First of all the caliper bolts were too long and hit the rotor when I tightened 'em down. The shield does move the caliper bracket towards the rotor all of about 1/16", so I don't think that was the issue. And I'd be curious if Gary went out and had a look how close his bolts were coming to meet with the rotor (you'd have to pull the wheel and look down over the top between the rotor and the caliper mount). I had to cut 2 threads off the bolts. Next was the caliper to wheel clearance. I have the 14" wheels already, but I had to shim out the wheels with almost 1/4" of washers to get the wheel to clear the calipers. That wasn't expected. I'm not a fan of shimming out wheels, but it's not a driver, so I'm going to make a full spacer out of aluminum when I get back to work (unless someone knows where one could get a wheel spacer for 4-lug Falcons).:confused: Other than these things it went together nicely.

As for the shields -- it's more for rocks and grease than for water. Disc brakes are pretty impervious to water since they self sheet the water off since the pads are pretty much in contact with the rotor all the time. Don't be fooled by pulling only being caused by front brake failures only. You can have a rear brake fail to some degree (water/seal/oil/brake fluid) that can cause a pull that feels just like it's coming from the front.

I'll tell you, these Volvo shields are almost perfect. They're mirrors of each other (meaning they made one shield that was the same for both sides) and the indent in it is perfect for the tie-rod arm of the front spindle. You couldn't have got a better shield -- other than to get one without any holes at all (so ours would be the only ones). There's one hole right next to one of theirs that you have to be care to drill so you don't fall into the other hole while drilling. Clamps and a nice drill-press help. Here's some pics of the final assembly.

[Luva65wagon]

Oh, and by the way... the shields cost be $3.51 for the pair (plus $2.00 admittance fee).

[Jeff W]

I'm not a fan of shimming out wheels, but it's not a driver, so I'm going to make a full spacer out of aluminum when I get back to work (unless someone knows where one could get a wheel spacer for 4-lug Falcons).:confused:

I have seen genaric 4 lug spacers. The pictured set I found at the site
below. I'm not sure they woudl meet your standards but @ $10/pr. they would work until you get around to making a custom set.

http://www.ezaccessory.com/