Freddie's Transplant

[MacDee]

Something I have fantasized about doing for a long time seems to be coming to pass...
As I have told a few of you already, I purchased a wrecked six-cylinder '67 Mustang a while back, at a co-worker's urging and with his help, and now possess the 200 I6 and TWO C4 transmissions (the guy had a spare!) as well as some other bits and pieces from it. I've commissioned a friend/retired ex-co-worker/master mechanic/hot rodder to build the engine. We have torn down the engine, and have been cleaning it up in preparation for a rebuild.
I am not a pure-restoration kind of guy. I, like my friend, am a hot-rodder at heart. The rebuild is NOT going to be stock! I am going to buy a Classic Inlines aluminum head and build the engine up with hot cam, headers, and a 4-barrel carb. I've established the Dynamic Compression Ratio (what a learning experience that was!) and have ordered the short block rebuild kit. We should be starting on the short block rebuild very soon. I have also sent in the order for most of the rest of the stuff (head, manifold, cam, lifters, rocker assembly, push rods, etc.) but have not sent money due to a delay in establishing shipping costs. I'm hoping this engine will be finished before my friend migrates to Arizona for the winter...
One thing my friend may not be able to help with much is the installation. He's restoring a '68 Vette in his shop also, and there is no room to move another car in. I don't know, but might this be another opportunity for a Tech Day?

[pbrown]

That sounds like a fun project. I'll help install when the time comes. I also have all the specialty tools you may need if your friend doesn't.

[redfalken]

Count me in! Sounds like a great build...and you know I'm partial to sixes!! I think it would be a blast to help get it installed and hear it start up for the first time.

That's ALWAYS exciting!

Keep us posted and make sure you post some photos as you go along.

[Luva65wagon]

I'm very interested in seeing how this all comes out as well. I've got an engine hoist too if you need one as well as all those "other" specialty tools; you know, sledge hammer, hack saw, vise grips, acetylene torch... we'll get that puppy in! [thumb]

[Nathan289]

No fair I wanna play:mad:

I so need to move.. I do need a bigger garage.. hmm don't think thats a good enough reason to move though..


Nathan

[falcon cobra]

Hey gary sounds like fun, all you need now is a turbocharger, then the roll bar comes next..where can I find info on the alum. head that you spoke about? I would like to check it out....thanks...john h:rocker:

[pbrown]

where can I find info on the alum. head that you spoke about? I would like to check it out.

http://www.classicinlines.com/

[MacDee]

..where can I find info on the alum. head that you spoke about?

Yeah, where Pat said.

I had started following the Ford Six Performance Forum http://fordsix.com/forum/, sporadically, even before I had acquired a Falcon. On that forum there was this guy who was talking about maybe designing an aluminum head for the little Falcon six. At the time I thought he was nuts and he really had no idea what it would take to do! Well, many years later, that nutty guy is now Classic Inlines! I'm so grateful he took the risk and developed the head that I just HAD to buy one!

[falcon cobra]

Well I think it's kinda cool to have a alum. head on a six, but it sure seems like quite an expense and a lot of work to run the 1/4 mile in 15.** or so seconds. my PT has a 4cyl, turbo, automatic and tips the scale at 3470# alot more than a falcon and still runs in the mid 14's....not sure why they couldn't get it alot lower than that....good luck...john h:ROTFLMAO:

[Nathan289]

A turbo I-6 running 15lbs of boost through a 2 barrel carb. can run a nasty 1/4 in the low tens..

So the aluminum head with the same turbo would probably run quicker..

I say Turbo it!!!

Nathan

[pbrown]

Twin tandem turbos would be cool. That's when two turbos are inline where one feeds the other. That allows the turbos to be a bit smaller and each tuned to a different RPM band. That plus EFI a two stages of NOS would be a lot of fun :D.

[MacDee]

I say Turbo it!!!


Twin tandem turbos would be cool. That's when two turbos are inline where one feeds the other. That allows the turbos to be a bit smaller and each tuned to a different RPM band. That plus EFI a two stages of NOS would be a lot of fun :D.

Whoa, guys!
Can't afford that kinda stuff!! As I said... head, cam, carb and headers. In my youth I had a '65 "Power Pack" Dart: 273, 4-bbl, 10.5:1, hot factory cam. It ran mid-15's on a cold night. If I can achieve similar performance, I would be delighted!

[63200i6]

Greetings,

I just joined today and noticed the thread.

If your interested in the CI head, I have one running in my 66' Mustang Coupe. Let me know if you would like to check it out and we can hook up.

<https://home.comcast.net/~tuckerjr3/FordSix/HighPlanViewflash.JPG (https://home.comcast.net/~tuckerjr3/FordSix/HighPlanViewflash.JPG)>

Ric.

[MacDee]

Yeah! I think I tried sending you a PM over on the Ford Six forum. I'd like to see your setup, and maybe bring my engine builder along. I'm going to be at the Bickford Ford show in Snohomish this Sunday. That may be a bit far for you, but I think you indicated you sometimes hang out at XXX. Any possibility of meeting there sometime in the next couple of weeks?

[63200i6]

MacDee,

Oh, I don't know it isn't that far. I will have to wing it on Sunday to see if I can make it. Otherwise, absolutely, it sounds like an impromptu Inline Six show at the XXX would be in order.

See ya soon, Ric.

[MacDee]

Thanks, Ric!
Hope you can make it. If not, we WILL do a XXX meeting!

[Luva65wagon]

So Gary... what's the status of your transplant? haven't heard from you in a while.

[MacDee]

The project is going very slowly...:(

Frankly, I'm having a bit of trouble getting Mike at Classic Inlines to respond to my efforts to buy parts from him. As I stated in the initial message, I'd ordered all the parts and was waiting for him to tell me the shipping charges so I could sent off the check. Well, that was in August, and I'm STILL waiting!
I've been bombarding him with e-mails (and actually got through to him by phone, once) and have been able to pretty much keep in touch with him, but so far, no shipment. He insists he has all the parts in stock EXCEPT for the head (another batch coming in a couple of weeks...). We agreed to go ahead and ship everything but the head ASAP. A week ago, he said he would box everything up, weigh it and tell me how much $$ to send. Since then... silence.
I get the impression he is pretty much an one-man operation, and he's so busy doing "tech" stuff that he doesn't have time to attend to the "business" stuff. (Maybe he needs to hire someone to, you know, fill orders, track inventory and stuff.)
In the meantime, we've got the block all prepped except for shaving the deck. Carter (my buddy who's building the engine) wants to see the head before committing to zero-decking the block. The rotating assembly is out for balancing.
Carter "winters" in Arizona, and will be leaving mid-December. I don't hold out much hope of finishing the engine this year. Coincidently, Classic Inlines is in Mesa, AZ, and Carter will probably pay a visit while he's down there. ;)

[63200i6]

I had my block "0" decked. I CC'd the head chambers and came up with 55 and 56 cc's (+/-.05 cc). There were three w/55 and three w/56. You would have to shave the head a bit to get the compression up even with the "0" decking.

I had to wait a bit also, but I'm glad I did. Check out the "Dyno" page on the web site. I'm dyno #4 and wrote up a blurb about what was done to the engine.

Good luck, MacDee.

Ric.

[Luva65wagon]

Gary,

Thanks for the update. Bummer when that stuff happens. You'd think from his site that he's cranking this stuff out, but it's not hard to put on a good front these days -- especially on-line. As 63200i6 said, it will obviously be worth the wait. I for one can't wait to ride in a hot 6 just to know whether to do something like this myself someday. I fear, though, that I may never win another "Best 6" award after you're done. :(

[MacDee]

Well, Mike at Classic Inlines tells me the next batch of heads is on its way... so I sent money. I'm REALLY committed now!
I ordered the aluminum head, assembled, with "steet" porting. I specified the Clay Smith valve springs and standard-size (untouched, approx 56cc) combustion chambers. Once I get the head, Carter, my builder, will check it out and then we'll make decisions on cc'ing the chambers and milling the head and block. I also ordered the intake manifold, 4-barrel adapter, and, of course, the ARP head stud kit.
It will be a while before it gets here, I'm sure. The CI web site says to allow "6-8 weeks (or longer)" and I'd bet the "or longer" applies here. I suspect Freddie will finish this season's shows with the 170 still in place!

[Sedanman]

Sorry to hear it's coming along so slowly, Gary, but this is all going to be worth it when it's done. Can't wait to see it!

[MacDee]

Freddie's new head HAS BEEN SHIPPED!
The UPS tracking tool shows it has moved from Mesa to Pheonix to Salt Lake over the past couple of days. It departed from Salt Lake in wee hours this morning presumably on its way to Seattle. Maybe I'll get it tormorrow?

I'll have to have an unveiling party or something.

[pbrown]

Bring it to the meeting if you get it in time.

[MacDee]

It came yesterday!!!
It sits in its box just inside our front door. I'm afraid to open it for fear that it will be instead be a subscription to a jelly-of-the-month club (ref Chevy Chase's Chistmas Vacation). I'll be taking it over to Carter's place on Saturday so he can proceed with the build.

[MacDee]

Yes, the head, intake manifold and head studs arrived and are all now over at Carter's place waiting to be fitted to the engine. I also bought a new 390-cfm Holley 4-bbl, a reconditioned dual-advance distributor, Pertronix II ignition kit, Flamethrower 45kv distributor and wires.

We're in the middle of rebuilding the tranny right now so not much is happening with the engine. We're pretty much following Kenny's lead with the C4, using his well-done web site and his recommended resources. One difference is that I had the torque converter stall speed modified ('bout 2600). Found a place in Auburn that could do it.

As I said earlier, I'm still very anxious about the installation. Carter's place isn't very convenient for doing the swap, and besides he is going in for an operation in October and will be out of commission for a while after that. My garage has a low ceiling and my driveway slopes significantly so I'm doubting I'll be able to do it safely there. Does anyone know of, or have, a place that could have a disabled bird stuck there for a few days?

I'm really looking forward to the drive to the muffler shop...uncorked!

[pbrown]

Why did you not gor with the Duraspark II distributor? Also, why dual vacuum? I though that was one of the eighties emition things.

You can use my driveway if you like. We could even paint the engine bay with a decent single stage paint from a paint gun.

[redfalken]

And I'm right nearby to lend a hand! [thumb]

[MacDee]

It's not a dual-vacuum distributor, but a mechanical-vacuum unit. A vacuum diaphragm AND fly weights. The distributor that came on the 200 was a vacuum-only unit. I had considered the DUI ignition that Classic Inlines sells, but decided it was an expensive over-kill for the this engine. I know this will sound silly, but the Duraspark distributor just looks funny! I like the idea of a "stock" distributor updated with top-of-the-line Pertronix. Open the hood and you'll see what looks like a period-correct distributor and a coil, just like you would with a stock engine. For some reason, that just appeals to me.

Pat, thank you for your offer! I especially like the idea of beautifying the engine bay with the engine out. I was (am?) concerned I just wouldn't have time to do that if we were in banzi-swap mode, just trying to get her running as quick as possible. I think rattle-can Rustolium black would be sufficient for the black areas. I would like to try to match the baby blue as close as possible for the small area at the top of the firewall and the underside of the hood.

I'm assuming Carter and I will have the engine and trans finished before he goes in for surgery. That would put it in October some time. I'll try to nail down a date better the next time I see him.

[pbrown]

The distributor that came on the 200 was a vacuum-only unit.

Are you quite sure about that. I've not seen a distributor, produced after the 30's, that didn't have mechanical advance.

[Sedanman]

While I'm here, a question about the forum; Why does the new post end up on the top of the page half the time, and half the time at the bottom/end of the thread? Took me a few drives around the block to get here :3g:


I'm totally with Gary on the distributor issue; Ever since I saw my first Duraspark I knew I didn't want one. Don't like the looks of the MSD boxes and extra wiring either, and like my engine bay as clean and simple as possible...

As for the vacuum advance, he's right on that point too; Ford didn't put mechanical advance in (at least) the small six dist. until '67, the reason a '67 one barrel carb will work, but not properly on an earlier engine without swapping in the later dist. The later carbs were built with different internal circuitry to pull a different amount of vacuum through the line to the dist. to compensate for the added mechanical advance. And now you know more than you ever cared to about stock 6cyl ignition/carburetion ;)

[pbrown]

While I'm here, a question about the forum; Why does the new post end up on the top of the page half the time, and half the time at the bottom/end of the thread?
I have never seen that. The default is for new posts (replies to existing threads) to always go to the bottom. You can override that in the your account settings but I doubt you did that.

Notice that any unread post/thread will have a small blue arrow next to it. Clicking on that will take you to the first unread post. Clicking the title of the thread will always take you to the top of the thread where you will have to scroll down to find the unread posts.



I'm totally with Gary on the distributor issue; Ever since I saw my first Duraspark I knew I didn't want one. Don't like the looks of the MSD boxes and extra wiring either, and like my engine bay as clean and simple as possible...
Not that the DS2 distributor cab is just a cap adapter with a big ugly cap on it. Underneath is a normal small sized dizzy. Just get a 200 cap and rotor and you'll have a DS2 with a small cap.

You would still need an ignition box. The upside is if you are on a long drive you'll be able to get a replacement part at the nearest part store. I don't think that would be true for the Ignitor. Keep in mind that I don't have anything against the Ignitor.



As for the vacuum advance, he's right on that point too; Ford didn't put mechanical advance in (at least) the small six dist. until '67, the reason a '67 one barrel carb will work, but not properly on an earlier engine without swapping in the later dist. The later carbs were built with different internal circuitry to pull a different amount of vacuum through the line to the dist. to compensate for the added mechanical advance. And now you know more than you ever cared to about stock 6cyl ignition/carburetion I stand corrected. I had to go look it up. What a dumb design.

[Nathan289]

I stand corrected. I had to go look it up. What a dumb design.


Yes, Yes it is...

It's also why its difficult to determine if its a carb or faulty Spark Control Valve

Nathan

[Sedanman]

Yes it is stupid design indeed. This is why I can't wait to get everything back together with my milled head, and Pony Carbs one barrel with my later distributor (need to get it re-curved). I've never driven this car with the correct carb/dist combination on a 200, and am looking forward to seeing how much better it runs. It won't be the same HP gain Gary will be experiencing, sadly..;)

Nathan - I've gotten rebuilt kits for my 1101, and the new spark control valve seems "stuck" if you try and push on the spring; Have no idea how you tell if it's bad or not. Luckily I'm saying goodbye to all that soon.

[Nathan289]

I'm sure there is a way to test the spark control valve system but I never bothered to learn how..I'm sure its in the manual or on the Ford six website..

I'm currently collectiong all the parts to put a 250 in my blue 61 futura
The 250 is getting longer rods from a 2.5L taurus and a custom ground cam. If I did the math right I should be around a ten to 1 compression ratio and i wont have a SCV system anymore.. I'm using a 73 Dura Spark set up which uses the stock six dizzy cap..

and I'm currently rebuilding a 170 for my wife's ranchero.. the 170 is getting bigger valves and a Ford 250 six cam grind.. I want to see how the 250 cam specs work in a 170...

Nathan

[MacDee]

Well, we had a setback....
The engine was all ready to go back together. We'd finished all the block machine work, did the final cleaning, applied rust inhibitor in the cylinders and deck in preparation for subsequent final assembly when the block fell off of the cart it was sitting on and hit the floor. At first it looked like there was no damage, but later while gapping the rings, it became apparent the #1 cylinder had been distorted by the blow.
We don't know yet if it is repairable. That cylinder had been previously sleaved. Perhaps it can be salvaged with re-sleaving. However, I need to start beating the bushes for another block... just in case. We've done too much, and come too far to abandon the project!
So...
Anyone who might have a rebuildable 1966 or newer 200 block (or engine), I would like to hear from you!

[Sedanman]

Gary,

Sorry to hear about the news :( I do have an extra '65 block (crank, rods, pistons, front cover, pulley but no pan or head) at my parents' house in Bellevue that I'm sure my dad would love to see gone. I've offered it to Kenny previously - please check with him first but if he doesn't want it I'll make you a deal. Even have a hoist there to load it with and a stand you can borrow if you like. PM'ing you my phone number as I'm not online much right now.

T
PS - '65 and '66 blocks are the same; '67 was the first year of the dual bellhousing pattern.

[redfalken]

If Gary wants the block it's all his. If not, I would go up to the Pull-a-Part and see if they have any good donors. And grab the throttle cable assembly while you're at it! I also see them come up on craigslist fairly often.

[MacDee]

Gary,

Sorry to hear about the news :( I do have an extra '65 block (crank, rods, pistons, front cover, pulley but no pan or head) at my parents' house in Bellevue that I'm sure my dad would love to see gone. I've offered it to Kenny previously - please check with him first but if he doesn't want it I'll make you a deal. Even have a hoist there to load it with and a stand you can borrow if you like. PM'ing you my phone number as I'm not online much right now.

T
PS - '65 and '66 blocks are the same; '67 was the first year of the dual bellhousing pattern.

Thank you, Thor!
I appreciate your offer, but, unfortunately I do need the later '67 or later block. My block is (was?) a '67 and we've already finished rebuilding the C4 that mates up to it.
If nothing else turns up, I may come back to you. I'm really in no hurry since I've called off the swap day. I really want to find a later block that can still be bored to +.040 (I know... GOOD LUCK!!). If I can find one like that, we'll save the pistons we've got and the balance we've already accomplished. I'm going to wait as long as I can for a block like that to maybe surface.

Thanks again, Thor. I really, REALLY appreciate your offer!

[MacDee]

Some good news...maybe?
We found another block (whole engine actually). It's a later block so it will mate to my C4, it's only been bored +.030, and isn't appreciably worn. The "?" comes from the fact that it had been sitting outside, under a tarp... for six years! When we first looked at it, it would not turn. We feared rust up the gazoo in the cylinders. We pulled head to discover there was some water, and some rust, is a couple of the cylinders. After spending some time scraping at the rust with a knife, Carter thought it might possible to shave the rust out with another .010. We got a good enough deal that we decided to take the risk. Carter has since torn the engine all the way down and done some clean-up on the block. When I last saw it (last Saturday), he hadn't bored it yet, but he seemed confident the cylinders would clean up with another .010 (out to +.040).

If nothing else [bad] happens, Carter thinks he can finish the engine before he goes in for knee surgery on October 21. However, there won't be enough time to fab up a test stand and run it.

It might be possible to go ahead and do the swap in a couple of weeks and fire it up in the car. Frankly, I'm not too eager about doing a swap in the cold and rain, so I'm inclinced to stick to my "next spring" decision to do the swap. That would give Carter time to recover and build the test stand, and me more time to think (worry?) about throttle and transmission linkage.

[pbrown]

That is good news Gary. I'll keep my fingers crossed that is cleans up okay.

As for your throttle and tranny linkage, Lokar had a very nice setup. Here is a photo of mine. You won't have to worry about carb orientation. You can even use this with a stock style cable pedal if you like.

http://www.rainierfalcons.com/gallery/data/507/medium/Throttle_Linkage.JPG

[MacDee]

That is good news Gary. I'll keep my fingers crossed that is cleans up okay.

As for your throttle and tranny linkage, Lokar had a very nice setup. Here is a photo of mine. You won't have to worry about carb orientation. You can even use this with a stock style cable pedal if you like.



Thanks, Pat!
Well, it didn't clean up as well as we'd hoped. Carter had to take it out to +.060 to get through the rust on the cylinder walls. We'll be buying new pistons and rings, and re-launching the project probably early next year.

Thanks to everyone who provided advice, support, condolence etc.! We'll get back into it soon!

[Nathan289]

Gary,
If you want to recoupe some of your loss, I might be interested in those pistons.. Did you already hang the pistons on the rods? sounds like you have, but maybe I can still use them..

Nathan

[MacDee]

Gary,
If you want to recoupe some of your loss, I might be interested in those pistons.. Did you already hang the pistons on the rods? sounds like you have, but maybe I can still use them..

Nathan

Thanks for the offer, Nate!
However,
1) The rods ARE already fitted;
2) The pistons are flat-top. If you use them with a stock head you'll have WAY TOO MUCH compression. The CI aluminum head has larger chambers than stock heads; thus the need to use flat-top pistons.

If you're still interested...
I have one more block to look at this weekend. If it doesn't pan out, the +.040 [flat-top] pistons might be available.

[Nathan289]

Gary,

The 200 uses the same pistons as the 250, which I'm building.. so flat tops aren't an issue, but the rods being hung is an issue.
IRC the 250 rods are longer than the 200, which means I need to use my rods. Actually I'm using a set of 2.5L taurus rods to long rod the engine.

I have a set of standard pistons that arent fitted with rings, That I planned on using if I can keep the block standard bore. Havent taken the block to dennis yet.. I have a builder who now knows everything he'll ever want to know about ford sixes.. He's built two for me and is currently building two more for other customers..

So if there is a way to save those pistons I might still be interested..

Nathan

[MacDee]

Thanks, Nathan!
I'll keep you in mind if the +.040 pistons end up being "redundant".

[pbrown]

Gary,

Any update on your engine project?

[MacDee]

Carter finished the engine, mostly, before leaving for his winter stay in AZ. I've added another entry on my blog with some more details. Basically, I've got to work out some details while he's gone, and we're hoping to run the engine perhaps in April.

I've attached some pictures showing how it looked the last time I saw it. Carter mounted the intake and the headers before he left, but these pictures were taken before that.

[Luva65wagon]

Pretty awesome Gary. Glad to see chains attached (and hopefully connected somewhere up above). ;)

You've already converted to an alternator haven't you? The pics have a gen, so was curious whether that's still the plan.

[pbrown]

You've already converted to an alternator haven't you? The pics have a gen, so was curious whether that's still the plan.

I was thinking the same thing. Why do all this work and keep the gen?

[MacDee]

I was thinking the same thing. Why do all this work and keep the gen?

Yeah, I'm already running the alternator in the car. The generator will be used just for tentioning the belt during the test run. We aren't going to hook up a charging system for the test; we'll just run off a battery.

[redfalken]

Looking good! Can't wait to hear it run this spring. Are you the first six with a Classic Inlines aluminum head in the area? I don't think I've seen one up close yet.

I think I'd put a couple Tempurpedic mattresses under that baby!

[MacDee]

Looking good! Can't wait to hear it run this spring. Are you the first six with a Classic Inlines aluminum head in the area? I don't think I've seen one up close yet.

I think I'd put a couple Tempurpedic mattresses under that baby!

Actually, 63200i6 (see the first page of this thread) has a Classic Inlines head on a '66 Mustang. He lives in Renton, I think, and I'd been hoping to meet him and see his Mustang, but haven't managed to yet.

Matresses. Hmmm....

[MacDee]

I did a little more work on Freddie's new engine. Before Carter left for AZ he gave me an assignment to try to get some things done during his absence. He asked that I work out the problem of the throttle arm on the carburetor interfering with the intake manifold, get and install sending units for oil pressure and water temperature gages, figure out a throttle linkage, and fabricate a fuel line.
After some careful measuring, I determined that I would have a good extra inch of hood clearance with the new engine installed. Based on that, I bought a 1/2-inch carb spacer from Jegs and installed the carb. I bought water temp and oil pressure gages and installed their sending units on the engine. I also upgraded the fuel pump to a Carter hi-perf unit and managed to fabricate a fuel line.
I still don't know for sure what to do for throttle linkage. Everyone is telling me I should get a later cable set-up and pedal from Pull-A-Part. I will probably do that if I can find time to get over there. Not sure what to do about tranny linkage either. One thing I've noticed is that the shift lever on my tranny is oriented with the lever UP, with Park engaged when the lever is pushed fully aft. This is opposite to what I saw on Kenny's C4 which has the lever DOWN and Park is fully forward. My trans was originally from a Mustang which had a floor shifter which may explain the difference. In any case, I'll need to figure out if I can reverse my lever, or else figure out how to "reverse" the input from the column shift. It dawned on me recently that, if all else fails, I could probably rig up the choke cable (which will be redundant with the new carb) to shift the transmission!
Carter is returning on April 29, so we should be able to run the engine within a week or two after that. We've tentatively set the "swap day" for May 22-23 (weekend after Monroe swap meet). Venue is yet to be determined.

[redfalken]

That engine's looking pretty sweet! My C4 came from a floor shift with the lever up too. If I recall, the shaft was made so you could point the lever either direction. But it's been awhile!

And cable throttle is the way to go. Cheap and a much smoother than a solid linkage. I'm looking forward to getting this bad boy in and see how it runs!!

[pbrown]

C4 linkage is up for floor and down for column shift. The lever is reversable but you must remove the pan and loosen the nut on the inside if I recall. You can also cut the tab off and use a universal clamp on lever. These are common and can be ordered from Summit or Jegs. The most important part is that the center line to linkage hole dimensions MUST match on the column and the tranny. If they don't the detents will be off.

As for throttle linkage and kickdown. I really like my Lokar setup. It's universal and will fit great. There should be photos in my gallery.

[MacDee]

As for throttle linkage and kickdown. I really like my Lokar setup. It's universal and will fit great.

So, Pat, would I need to change my gas pedal with the Lokar cable setup?

[Jeff W]

Gary - I have a cable set up that I pulled last month from Pull-a-part.

I won't need it until next summer when I do my conversion.

I'm happy to bring it to the tech day, then you will have an entire year to leisurely visit a Pull-a-part for my replacement.

If you do pull one, don't forget to grab the little metal spacer that is under the pedal bracket... it is usually crimped to the carpet padding.

I'll take a picture of the assembly this weekend so you can make an educated decision.

[pbrown]

So, Pat, would I need to change my gas pedal with the Lokar cable setup?

You can use a Lokar pedal or find any pedal designed for use with a cable. The pedal Jeff has will probably work great. You shopuld still get the Lokar kickdown and the carb bracket.

[Jeff W]

I'll even clean it up and shoot some paint in it for you.

[MacDee]

Just got back from an "extended lunch" at Pull-A-Part. I scored a pedal from a '79 LTD. It looks similar to the one in Jeff's picture, but the arm appears to be "contoured" a little different. I forgot to bring my midget wrenches and couldn't get at the screws attaching the throttle cable to the firewall, so I didn't get the cable. Maybe I'll make another clandestine run some time next week and try to get the cable.

[MacDee]

I did go back, with midget wrenches, and got the throttle cable out of that LTD. However, it being a V8 car, the cable looks like it will be too short.
So...
I ordered the Lokar Universal throttle cable, kickdown cable and bracket/return-spring kit. I think I have everything I need now, except for the link from the column to the tranny shift lever.

I could still rig up the choke cable to shift the tranny...:ROTFLMAO:

[Luva65wagon]

Boy... I can't wait to see this thing run. Looking really, really, nice. What's the temp/vac valve on the water outlet going to do? Part of the vacuum advance circuit?

On an interesting side-note, our Aussie division employee was in town last week and I think I may sic him on finding an Aussie head. He was very interested in seeing if he could find one of those... just to find one. We'll see. I'm not sure I'd consider it with the 4-speed I have. 8.5" clutch would not hook up, I'm sure, if I make too much more power. I'm already a little worried with a higher ratio rear-end I just put in.

[MacDee]

What's the temp/vac valve on the water outlet going to do? Part of the vacuum advance circuit?



Frankly, I don't know WHAT that thing is! We're putting the temp sending unit at a port at the back end of the head. I'm guessing that thing on the water outlet housing will disappear before it gets to Pat's place for the swap.

Update: I just bought a couple of tie rod ends and a piece of rod to make a column shift link similar to the Lokar. $17 instead of $60. I've also sprung for a chrome valve cover. I decided the blue cover looked out-of-place with the aluminum head and black K&N filter.

[redfalken]

...He was very interested in seeing if he could find one of those... just to find one. We'll see....

See if you can get him to find two!! :D

[Jeff W]

Update: I just bought a couple of tie rod ends and a piece of rod to make a column shift link similar to the Lokar. $17 instead of $60.


I will bring my Lokar link to the swap day... if your home-made one has issues you can borrow mine to get home - then figure something out at your leisure. I'm collecting the parts but my swap is still two years out.

I won't be able to stay long but will deliver the hoist and hang out for an hour or two. Did we ever firm up a venue?

[MacDee]

I will bring my Lokar link to the swap day... if your home-made one has issues you can borrow mine to get home - then figure something out at your leisure. I'm collecting the parts but my swap is still two years out.

I won't be able to stay long but will deliver the hoist and hang out for an hour or two. Did we ever firm up a venue?

Thanks, Jeff!
I only guessed at the size for the tie rod ends. Could you confirm from your Lokar unit if they're 1/4-inch? The only other issue is having access to a thread die to thread the rod. Does anyone who is planning to be there have a 1/4-28 die we could use?

I believe we're still doing the swap at Pat's house.

[pbrown]

My house is still available. We just need to set dates. I'll be in NY at the end of this month and Lisa is quickly filling dates with Summer activities.

[Luva65wagon]

I have a full tap and die set, so I can bring it if Pat doesn't have a set. I'll be there... just depends on the date for me too. It is still the weekend of the 22nd, right?

[Jeff W]

Thanks, Jeff!
I only guessed at the size for the tie rod ends. Could you confirm from your Lokar unit if they're 1/4-inch?


If you are talking about the diameter of the rod - it mics out at .312 (5/16") - the hole diameter for the bolts in the rod ends are the same.

See this link about Kenny and his 1/4" attempt.

http://www.rainierfalcons.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1125&highlight=linkage

[MacDee]

Okay, so I just picked up a couple of 5/16 Hiem joints and a piece of 5/16 rod. Whatever....
I also just dropped off the two driveshafts at Drivelines NW. By the end of next week I'll have a driveshaft ready to go in.

I'm not completely sure, but I think I have everything on my "worry list" resovled! I'm sure I'll find a whole bunch more stuff to worry about before May 22, and we'll run into still more "worry stuff" May 22-23! I guess I just won't worry about that for now.

[Jeff W]

1/4" vs. 5/16"... Too bad you don't know any Mechanical Engineers at Boeing that could run some calculations for you :p

This is not a worry for you - but I will be in Whidbey Island that Weekend. I will bring the Lifting Hoist and the Lokar linkage over to Pat's house prior to my exit from Seattle. If you guys are still at it on Sunday, I'll swing by.

I know Roger also has a hoist but if he doesn't have to bring it, perhaps he can drive his gas sipper down rather than the Club Hauler. He could bring his engine leveler though as mine just has a single point chain.

[redfalken]

I was really looking forward to this project but I'll be in Missouri for my parents 50th wedding anniversary. Someone take pictures and send me some notes for the summer newsletter if you can.

I was also hoping to be there in case there was something you missed on your worry list and I live a few blocks from Patrick. But I'm sure you'll have it covered.

[MacDee]

1/4" vs. 5/16"... Too bad you don't know any Mechanical Engineers at Boeing that could run some calculations for you :p
The Mechanical Engineer seems to think a 1/4" rod would be plenty stout. However, a 1/4" bolt in 5/16" hole is NOT GOOD. Therefore I am prepared to go either way!


I know Roger also has a hoist but if he doesn't have to bring it, perhaps he can drive his gas sipper down rather than the Club Hauler. He could bring his engine leveler though as mine just has a single point chain.Speaking of Club Hauler, I've been meaning to ask if Roger would be willing to haul the engine in the Club Hauler. He lives not too far from Carter's place (Cathcart), and I would certainly be willing to pay for the beast's gas. I have a buddy lined up to haul it, but it's pretty inconvenient for him, and I'm sure he would be delighted if it turned out he didn't need to.



I was also hoping to be there in case there was something you missed on your worry list and I live a few blocks from Patrick. But I'm sure you'll have it covered.I think I've got just about everything on the Worry List covered. Well, except....

I flipped the tranny shift lever over to accommodate the column shifter. (Had to drop the pan and valve body to access the nut.) However, unlike Kenny's that jogs out away from the tranny case, mine jogs IN and clears the pan flange on the case by only a small fraction of an inch! I might be going back over to Carter's place perhaps this Friday and see about bending the lever a little bit. If I can't get enough room for a nut and excess bolt length (the Mechanical Engineer says I need two thread showing), I'll drop the pan and valve body again so I can put a bolt through the hole in the lever from the inside out.

I dropped off the driveshafts at Drivelines NW last Friday. I'll pick up the modified unit on Friday (perhaps on my way over to Carter's).

[Luva65wagon]

Speaking of Club Hauler, I've been meaning to ask if Roger would be willing to haul the engine in the Club Hauler. He lives not too far from Carter's place (Cathcart), and I would certainly be willing to pay for the beast's gas. I have a buddy lined up to haul it, but it's pretty inconvenient for him, and I'm sure he would be delighted if it turned out he didn't need to.

What? I thought you were just gonna throw that into your trunk and drive it over there yourself. [thumb]

I've yet to do my master cylinder swap on the "club hauler" and don't really want to drive it too much until I get that done, I may be able to take Gene up on helping me do that before the swap-meet this weekend -- but that would only be tomorrow or Wednesday if at all. The brake fade is pretty severe on the thing. So, assuming I can get that done between now and then, I suppose we can arrange that. I've got my other pickup too, so we could use that if we have to.

And yes, I'll bring my leveler too.

[MacDee]

We'll be firing up the engine this Friday (May21)! At least that's the goal.
Details at tonight's meeting.

[MacDee]

The engine will arrive at Pat's house, probably around 9:00-9:30 am on Saturday depending on traffic and how long it takes to load the engine up at Carter's place.
I'm providing lunch.

[MacDee]

A quick recap: We swapped the new engine into Freddie last May, managed to get it running barely well enough that I was able to nurse it home. It was not really what you could call "drivable". Consensus was that there were, at least, massive vacuum leaks. I struggled for a short time looking for vacuum leaks and trying to tune it better before an overseas vacation. Didn't get very far. I'm now back from vacation and I’ve done some more work on Freddie to try to get her to a “drivable” state.

First, I re-set the valves. I used the method spelled out in the Classic Inlines tech section; basically, with the engine warmed and lifter on the base circle, turn the adjusters ¼-turn more after you can’t spin the pushrod with your fingers. (On several of the valves, I had to back them off several turns before I could spin the pushrod.)

Then, I referred to a thread on the Ford Six Performance forum involving someone who set up an engine very similar to mine: http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=51901&hilit=Vacuum+with+the+new+head (http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=51901&hilit=Vacuum+with+the+new+head)

In this thread, “80Stang” details everything he did to tune his engine (CI aluminum head, Holley 390cfm 4-barrel carb, and a 274-degree cam; VERY SIMILAR to my engine.) The first problem he encountered was… vacuum leaks. He resolved that, apparently, by installing the intake manifold with better gaskets (He even used sealant around the ports). He’s using Dura-spark ignition, but is utilizing the mechanical advance only. Ultimately, he ended up setting the timing at 14 btdc initial with 34 degrees total.
Based on that, I dispensed with the vacuum advance and did my best to tune it from there. (I bought a timing light with adjustable delay and a vacuum gage.) I ended up with the timing set at about 14 btdc initial (just like 80Stang), but with my dizzy it tops out at about 30 degrees total. I was able to get it to run well enough that it’s drivable… sort of. I can get it to idle in gear, but she still runs very badly. It runs very unsteadily and is way down on power. (It has more power than the old 170, but probably not much more than a stock 200.) I strongly suspect I still have massive vacuum leaks!

I think my next task might be to re-install the intake manifold with new gaskets. (I have some nice gasket material I’m just itching to use.) I’ve been given advice that I should do this “only as a last resort”, but I think that’s where I’m at. I would welcome any comments/suggestions/advice before I tear into it further!

Thanks!

[pbrown]

Gary,

Consider pulling the intake to check for flatness at the mating surface. You should not need to use sealant at this area. Take the intake to a machine shop and ask them to use a flat bar to see if it is machined flat all the way across. Maybe have them take a few thousants off to level it out.

You'll want to check the mating surface at the head as well. Maybe they can rent/loan you the flat bar so you can check your head while on the engine. If this shows any problem, you either need to use the sealant method or pull the head for proper machining.

[Luva65wagon]

Man, I'd have a hard time believing these guys [CI] would build a head and intake and forget this ultra-critical step -- making sure the mating surfaces are flat. I'd think twice about this being the case. If they were not flat, after all, I'd be really PO'd,

Generally you can check for vacuum leaks by closing off the air-horm slowly. If the engine starts to run a little better when you do this, the it's more than likely at the intake/head or some other port we missed. Don't forget to check the carb mount gasket too. Make sure it's not exposing some vacuum path.

I know I offered to come by and take a look at it when you got back, but I'm in headless-chicken mode at the moment. There's little chance I'd be able to cruise by before I take my vacation, but I may find an opening. Will let you know how that goes.

[pbrown]

Man, I'd have a hard time believing these guys [CI] would build a head and intake and forget this ultra-critical step -- making sure the mating surfaces are flat. I'd think twice about this being the case. If they were not flat, after all, I'd be really PO'd,


I bring this up only because of the thread that Gary linked to. I also would be very upset of the machining wasn't perfect.

Gary - You have a carb gasket above AND below the carb spacer right? Check that spacer and make sure there aren't any holes that we missed.

[MacDee]

Gary - You have a carb gasket above AND below the carb spacer right? Check that spacer and make sure there aren't any holes that we missed.

Yeah, there's a gasket on both sides of the spacer. I used the gasket that came with the carb on the top, and I had to make one for the bottom using the manifold as a form. Also, I sprayed carb cleaner around the base (of the carb and of the spacer) while it was running and it had no effect. I think that's telling me the leak isn't there.

[falcon cobra]

gary give me a call,I may be able to help, 827 5302 ..john

[MacDee]

The problem is in the CARBURETOR!

Kind of a long story, but after discovering a slight vacuum leak between the carburetor main body and the throttle plate, I had Carter take a look at it. Turns out it had some SERIOUS quality issues. The top surface of the throttle plate was not flat, the main-body casting looked like @#$%^!:WHATTHE: Eventually, he rebuilt the whole thing, correcting many problems he found as he did it. While he had it, he loaned me another Holley carb he'd bought at a swap meet 20 years ago and had been sitting on a shelf ever since. It was missing the choke mechanism and some of the throttle linkage, but it was complete enough that I was able to install it and run my engine. It ran, and idled, JUST FINE with that old carb. [thumb]
Carter finished mine and I re-installed it this morning. It acts just the same as it did before he rebuilt it!!! It still WILL NOT IDLE! :doh:

That sucker is getting shipped back....

[Luva65wagon]

Well Gary, based upon what I saw that day, this is not a surprise. I wish you all the luck in the world getting them to take that back. Would like to be a fly on the wall during that call.

[MacDee]

I called Holley's Tech Service hot line. I described the problem, the other "issues" we found, and what we've done to try to correct them.

They want to have a look at it.

I'll be shipping the thing to Holley instead of to Summit.

[MacDee]

I got the carb back from Holley. "Set float level, adjusted [blah, blah, blah]." They declared the carb "OK".

It still doesn't work. :bicker:

Does anyone have a Holley 4160-series, vacuum-secondary, carburetor I could borrow?

[Luva65wagon]

The other thing to try is putting that on a car or truck and see if it runs crappy on another vehicle. I should be around all day Saturday if you want to put it on my pickup to see what happens. I've got one of the Edelbrock/Carter style carbs on it, this won't work on yours due to the width, but it may indicate whether that carb is bad in general or just bad on your engine for some reason.

I posted to you in the PM about that 2-barrel Holley which you are welcome to try if you can get a 4-2 adapter.

I think that carb has an internal vacuum leak they are somehow overlooking.

[MacDee]

The other thing to try is putting that on a car or truck and see if it runs crappy on another vehicle. I should be around all day Saturday if you want to put it on my pickup to see what happens.


Yeah, Roger, that's a GREAT idea! I'm going to try one more thing Friday night (99% chance it won't work), and then I'll remove it and bring it over on Saturday.



I posted to you in the PM about that 2-barrel Holley which you are welcome to try if you can get a 4-2 adapter.


Yeah, a "standard" 4-2 adapter might work. I would use my existing Classic Inlines 4-bbl adapter with the 4-2 adapter on top of it. The one thing I'd be concerned about is the hood clearance. I'm currently running a 1/2" spacer (to get linkage clearance from the manifold) which I would delete, but the adapter you had the link to in the PM is 1" thick. I don't know if I have another 1/2" of hood clearance.

[Luva65wagon]

Yes, come on by if you want. Call me before you do, just in case I've made a run to someplace.

One other thing I've been thinking, ever since I say Carter make this change, is to completely close off the secondary plates (back off that set-screw) so you are at idle only drawing through the primary side. It may just be running too rich with no control over the secondary's at idle.

Barring anything you try actually getting you anywhere with that Helley, I think the main thing we'd be trying to figure out afterwards is does this car run right with "anything" other than that Holley. You've been able to ascertain that without ever shutting the hood, so far. So if you had to run it in the garage without an air cleaner, it is proof, which is what we need first.

If it runs, you're at the place of telling Holley they are full of it and either get them to warranty this with another carb or go with a different carb altogether and use that one as a $250 boat anchor.

Perhaps one of the Summit carbs like I saw on John Henry's car a couple years ago. He ended up pulling it in favor of a Rottenchester spread-bore, but it looked like a good alternative to the wide-bodied Edelbrock/Carter style carbs, which you may have side-clearance issues with. The Summit carb is closely modeled after the early Motorcraft carbs of the 60's with no opening (nothing to leak) below the fuel level.

So there you go...

[MacDee]

Well, we tried my carburetor on Roger's truck. It worked just fine. :WHATTHE:
I went back and borrowed Carter's "swap meet" Holley and tried it again. This time I scavenged all the missing parts from my Holley so I could drive it. In truth, it may work a little better than my carburetor, but it still runs so bad, I'm now convinced the problem is probably NOT my carburetor!
It only has about 10 in Hg vacuum at "idle", but I can't find a vacuum leak (doesn't mean there isn't one!). I checked that the distributor gear is on the right tooth.
I really don't know where to go from here. Anybody know a tune-up genius with a reputation for fixing obscure problems like this?

[pbrown]

Disconnect ALL (dizzy, tranny, pcv, etc) your vacuum accessories and cap the ports. Make sure you have nothing connected to the carb except for a throttle and fuel line. Open the electric choke fully to remove that from the system. Then see what happens.

You may have a leak in the dizzt diaphram. The tranny vacuum modulator may be bad.

[MacDee]

Disconnect ALL (dizzy, tranny, pcv, etc) your vacuum accessories and cap the ports. Make sure you have nothing connected to the carb except for a throttle and fuel line. Open the electric choke fully to remove that from the system. Then see what happens.

Done that...


You may have a leak in the dizzt diaphram. The tranny vacuum modulator may be bad.

Checked those too.

I'll make a list of everything I've done and send that to you.

[pbrown]

Pull the carb spacer out. Maybe it is warped.

[redfalken]

I've never liked the spraying carb cleaner (or other flammables) method for looking for vacuum leaks. I hold a small hose up to my ear and move the other end around areas where there is a possibility for leaks. You will hear it whistle like crazy.

Be mindful of the fan blade and other spinning parts!!

When I first installed my Weber carb, the slotted holes in the gasket that came with the adapter made a HUGE leak (4 huge leaks actually) so check around every bolt or any type of connection that may leak. Bend hoses around to make sure they're not cracked or if new they may have accidentally been torn or cut. Don't forget the PCV valve. Make sure it rattles when you shake it.

Vacuum leaks can really reak havoc!

[falcon cobra]

Gary, I thought you guys said you ran it on a stand to brake in the cam..how did it run then? which carb was on it? then you said it ran better with the junk yard holley that came off carters shelf.. won't that work? I think you need to check the cam [ degree it in and or check it..] even the best can get things off a tooth....john h

[MacDee]

Pull the carb spacer out. Maybe it is warped.

Hmm... Haven't tried that. Seems like it's seated nicely on both gaskets, though.


I hold a small hose up to my ear and move the other end around areas where there is a possibility for leaks. You will hear it whistle like crazy.


Did that too...



When I first installed my Weber carb, the slotted holes in the gasket that came with the adapter made a HUGE leak (4 huge leaks actually) so check around every bolt or any type of connection that may leak. Bend hoses around to make sure they're not cracked or if new they may have accidentally been torn or cut. Don't forget the PCV valve. Make sure it rattles when you shake it.


Did all that too.


I think you need to check the cam [ degree it in and or check it..] even the best can get things off a tooth....john h

Yeah, I think I need to check the cam, too. I want to get Carter's help with that.

I'm working on a complete "chronology" of everything that's been done since I got her home. It's going to be pretty big, so I'll probably post it on my blog.

Stay tuned...

I have not checked for TDC. I don't believe it would be possible for the timing chain to be off. However, it could be possible for the harmonic balancer to have spun. It's new, but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't bad!

[Luva65wagon]

Gary-

The thing that keeps going through my head is this: If I built that engine for you and it was pretty much complete when I delivered it, I'd be all over trying to help you figure out why the engine I built runs like it's running. I don't recall if it was run on the rack (have not reread this entire thread), but that would be a key to knowing when things went south.

I'm not saying Carter hasn't been helping, either, because I know he has been, but I think it may be time to get it over to his place, leaving it there as long as needed, so he can figure out why the engine he built isn't running right. From what I saw of his place, he's certainly got the tools to dig into it.

Just my 2 cents.

You'd be welcome to bring it over here and leave it too, but I'm running on negative time to work on things right now - so it might be here a long time. :o

If you need to tow it - you're welcome to use the club hauler.

[MacDee]

...I think it may be time to get it over to his place...

I expect this will probably happen soon.



If you need to tow it - you're welcome to use the club hauler.

I can actually get it to run well enough to drive it to wherever it needs to go.
(...even over a cliff if necessary!)

[falcon cobra]

Oh not over the cliff, I think we have all been there about that thought, but it will run fine someday which may not that far away, ok are there solid lifters or hyd.? are the rockers adjustable? they could be a little tight [ plunger not centered in hyd. lifter] that would make for low vacume and bad idle...I did that once... not good....:rocker: john

[MacDee]

...are there solid lifters or hyd.? are the rockers adjustable? they could be a little tight [ plunger not centered in hyd. lifter] that would make for low vacume and bad idle...I did that once... not good....:rocker: john

They're hydraulics. I did RE-adjust them hoping that might be the problem, but it had no effect.

[MacDee]

I've posted a "chronology" of everything that's been done since I drove it home from the swap on my blog page.

http://www.rainierfalcons.com/forums/blog.php?b=32

(Hope that link works! If not, just navigate over to MacDee's blog...)

At least everyone will know what HAS been tried....

[Jeff W]

Gary... have you called NPR to donate your vehicle or are you still workig on this?

[MacDee]

Haven't driven it over a cliff yet.
The last activity was a trip over to Carter's a couple of months ago. We spent most of a day on it checking the cam timing. I was hoping it was maybe off by a tooth. It wasn't. Apparently, the cam is just too "much".
Mike Winterbore (Classic Inlines) sent me a message stating that the cam should be timed 4 degrees advanced. (I never saw anything on his web site indicating that!) Carter and I discussed at some length where we wanted to set the timing, and in the end settled on staight up (zero). Advancing the timing typically increases low end torque at the expense of top end power, so maybe it would be more livable with the cam timing advanced.
After we put everything back together, it had somehow developed a coolant leak off the forward left-hand side of the oil pan. Couldn't find where it was coming from. Carter tuned it to the best of his ability, then I drove it home and parked it.

I've left it alone long enough now that I'm starting to get the urge to work on it again. I want to try to get the exhaust system re-installed so it isn't dragging the ground, and get the electrical gremlins sorted out. If I can get that much done, I'll feel better about maybe trying to go back in and re-install the timing set four degrees advanced.

Jeff, I don't think I'll be getting around to trying to improve the shift linkage any time soon. I need to return your Lokar set-up somehow. Will there be any club meetings over the winter? I could bring it to you at a meeting, perhaps.

[Jeff W]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Keep at it.

I will need the Lokar back in the summer of 2012. I'm sure we will meet before then... maybe at the All Ford Picnic next spring.

[BillP 98201]

Could it be the msd box could be getting lower voltage? Did you try another distributor? Maybe its an elecrical issue. Im judt guessing of course.

[MacDee]

I've made some progress. I got the exhaust system nicely re-installed, and tried (but failed) to find the electrical gremlin.

Details in my blog:
http://www.rainierfalcons.com/forums/blog.php?b=48

[MacDee]

I found the electrical gremlin!!

There was a pinched wire in the steering column. This is what I had suspected, but missed seeing it when I looked in there once before. I was able to trace the short to the specific wire, and when I took the steering wheel off again, I found that wire pinched. Had to take the shift collar off to fix it, but managed to get it back together without pinching any more wires.

Brake lights, turn signals, dome light... all working!! :banana:

Now if I could just get those push rods back.

[Luva65wagon]

Congratulations! I know how tough wiring gremlins can be. There's hope to see your car at a show this year yet!

[MacDee]

Alas, my push rods are still at large...
However, I "borrowed" the rocker shaft assembly and push rods out of "engine #2" from Carter and installed them.
She runs about the same as the last time I drove her. She ran, and runs, well enough that I vowed to start taking her to shows if I got the other issues resolved (which I have). She still runs hesitantly at low speeds in top gear, and is is a little reluctant to idle, but it's not too bad and it's pretty easy to keep her running at stop signs now.

So, true to my vow, I'll be taking her to the Fathers Day show at Country Village in Bothell next Sunday (June 19) for her debut appearance! I've also got the registration form for Greenwood all filled out and ready to mail.

The valve train is now very sound, which is to say there are no more bad sounds coming from it. During one test drive, I kept her booted until the secondaries opened.... WOW!! The thing took off like a Saturn V ROCKET! It makes me feel somewhat better about the whole project, to say the least!

Looking forward to "being around" again!

[Jeff W]

Good news indeed. Glad the burden of an "issue" has been lifted significantly, now you can tune and tinker.

[BillP 98201]

Glad to see you are "back in business" Its a beautiful car.

[Luva65wagon]

Well Gary - I guess you built a drag car. Idle? Who needs to idle?

Saturn V rocket? Man - I want a ride in that! Sounds like fun... but then I suspect I will get all jealous and will have to do the same thing in the Ranchero - sell the 289 I have for it to fund the project... [thumb]

:D

[MacDee]

I spent some more time with Freddie again yesterday; made a little more progress....

Since I'm running points again, I adjusted the spark plug gap down to "factory specs", .034. I re-set the timing with the Vacuum Gage Technique: Got it idling as slow as I could get it (about 800 rpm) and then set the timing to the highest vacuum reading (about 14 in Hg). Then, back off the timing until you see 2 in Hg less; for me, 12 in Hg. Tighten down the distributor and check with timing light. Mine was at about 14 BTDC. Ran the engine up until mechanical advance was all the way out; about 33 BTDC. Hooked up the vacuum advance (first time in a long while), and even hooked up the PCV. She runs okay now; still not great, but okay. She'll idle at stop lights, in gear, without me having to intervene on the throttle (THIS is PROGRESS!). Still hesitates frequently cruising down the road, but never threatens to quit. I wonder if I need more dwell (Well, I NEED A BETTER IGNITION SYSTEM!!). Spec says it should be 37-42 degrees. I'm right at 37.

Well, I NEED A BETTER IGNITION SYSTEM!!
It finally dawned on me that the Pertronix allows you to do away with points, and allows a full 12V to the coil, but that's about it. (My Pertronix system seems to be possessed. It would work okay one day, but not the next. I dunno.... That's why I gave up on it!) Upon finally figuring out how a Capacitor Discharge system works (like DuraSpark), it became clear this is what I need. A Capacitor Discharge system provides ~400V to the coil so the coil's output goes to about 50KV instead of the typical less-than 30KV! I'm sure this would help. I'm just confused now about what components I ought to buy. The obvious choice for a module is the MSD 6A, but Classic Inlines has a unit they swear by that's about $60 cheaper. (Though I noticed in one of his articles, Classic Inlines CEO Mike Winterbore is running MSD on one of his projects!) Should I upgrade to a DuraSpark distributor? I downloaded installation instructions for the MSD module and it says it can be used in conjunction with a Pertronix system. Should I try re-installing my Pertronix and use it to trigger a CD module? What are the advantages/disadvantages of the DuraSpark distributor vs. the stock '60's vintage dizzy (like I have) with Pertronix? Can I use my existing coil (an Accel unit right now; I also have the Pertronix "megablaster" or whatever they call it)?

Oh, by the way, I got my push rods back. Apparently one of the partners at Pushrods.com had some trouble with... uh ...following through? He... uh ...no longer works there. I called, and the other partner had my push rods ON HIS DESK ready to ship. I haven't put them back in yet. (Carter is in no great hurry to get back the ones I borrowed.)

Anyhow, just wanted to provide an update.
Feeling a little better....

[pbrown]

Hey Gary. It's good to hear that you are making progress.

Go find a stock replacement Duraspark II dizzy for a 200L6. You should be able to find one for $43.89 from Rock Auto with single vacuum. Look for CARDONE part number 302690.

You'll need a ignition control box. You can go with a stock Ford module or one of many aftermarket units. I'm partial to the MSD unit and would go with Digital 6A (part #6201) or the Digital 6AL (part #6425).

You'll also need a cap and rotor for the dizzy above and some different spark plug wires. The cap terminals are different.

The Duraspark dizzy is cheap, reliable, easily found, and tunable. It has a good hot spark. The cap is larger diameter to get the terminals apart more to avoid cross fire.

You're coil should be fine if it's a 12V coil.

[Jeff W]

Why is the $175 MSD unit better/different than the $23 ignition control module that comes from ford?

[Luva65wagon]

That's a question I'd like to know too. When I put my engine back into the Ranchero I plan to use the DSII setup I got a couple years ago. I got the whole kit and kaboodle. I noticed that Kelly is running the stock DSII Ford parts on his wagon towing that trailer of his all the time. I've not really researched the swap yet - or looked at the MSD parts. I would suspect the benefit to be better adjustments over the non-adjustable Ford setup.
:confused:

[pbrown]

Why is the $175 MSD unit better/different than the $23 ignition control module that comes from ford?

The stock Duraspark I and II systems are Inductive Discharge Ignition (IDI) systems. IDI systems are great for stock engines but do not do well as RPM picks up. The spark energy drops off as RPM increases due to coil recharge times.

The MSD module, and most other aftermarket boxes, are Capacitive Discharge Ignition (CDI) systems. A CDI system will produce a hotter and more consistent spark across the whole RPM range. MSD boxes also provide several sparks per power stroke for a more efficient burn and smoother idle. This is only good to about 3000 RPM when only one spark for power stroke is possible.

[pbrown]

Here are some other options for CDI boxes.

Mallory HyFire
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-6852M/

MSD Digital 6A
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-6201/

Summit Racing
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-850610/

Accel 300+
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ACC-49300/

[falcon cobra]

I know you won't do this but here goes, this is a GM ignition modual found inside a HEI distributor, they do the same job that the big ford box does, and cost about 25.00 I have used one on my falcon for 20 years and no problems, roger has been for a ride in it, ask him what he thinks, all it need is a magnitic pickup in the distributor...try it you will like it, also it uses a 12v coil, no ballast restor...john h

[Luva65wagon]

I have no complaints. John's Falcon screams.

I may consider this as opposed to the big Ford Box, which I've been trying to figure out how to "hide". It's easy to hide, but as I recall it needed to be bolted to something to act as a heat sink?

And $25 is good. Heck, Pick and Pull I could probably buy 5 of them for $25 -- if I wanted to venture into the forbidden zone. :WHATTHE:

[Luva65wagon]

Maybe you could give what wires go where, or point to a web site showing this?

[falcon cobra]

The purple wire from dist goes to the G pin and the orange goes to the w pin. on the other end the B goes to +12v ign. and the C goes to the coil - side.....there is no website that I know of, I figured this out years ago, it even worked with points on the bench....[BOW] jh

[Luva65wagon]

Sounds simple enough. Won't give you 3 firings at idle like the MSD - but I would think if the spark is hot enough... that might be enough for a relatively stock motor.

[Jeff W]

I've got no problems with GM... they made a couple of adequate cars in the past. I like cheap solutions.

[MacDee]

Go find a stock replacement Duraspark II dizzy for a 200L6. You should be able to find one for $43.89 from Rock Auto with single vacuum. Look for CARDONE part number 302690.

You'll need a ignition control box. You can go with a stock Ford module or one of many aftermarket units. I'm partial to the MSD unit and would go with Digital 6A (part #6201) or the Digital 6AL (part #6425).

What about the Street Fire box MSD has? It has multiple spark and adjustable rev limiter, same as the 6AL, but for about $70 less:

http://www.msdignition.com/Products/Ignitions/Daily_Driver/5520_-_Street_Fire_Ignition.aspx

Anyone have any experience with this (or heard anything)?



You'll also need a cap and rotor for the dizzy above and some different spark plug wires. The cap terminals are different.

Will I also need the cap adapter?

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=43726

Just looking at the pictures of the distributor and cap, there doesn't seem like there would be room for a rotor unless something like this is installed.

[pbrown]

What about the Street Fire box MSD has? It has multiple spark and adjustable rev limiter, same as the 6AL, but for about $70 less:


I've not use these but it will probably work just fine.




Will I also need the cap adapter?


Yes. You will need the adapter.

[BPVan]

I just did the MSD-6AL / Duraspark II upgrade myself. I have some extra wire harness connectors if you need them, Ford and MSD side. Also O'Reilys sells the Ford to MSD harness adapter if you don't want to build it yourself.

[Luva65wagon]

I finished restoring my Duraspark distributor yesterday and spent some time researching the GM module a little more. This seems split down the middle of those that love it, those that don't. There was one thing it didn't do that the stock Ford module did, which was to retard the timing on start-up. Not sure the MSD does this. Probably does. But then I read in one obscure post a comment that there is a GM module with a retard trigger - all the rest is the same. But nobody seems to have ever tried that one. Found that one on ebay for $11, so I will experiment on it. Just to know.

I hope Gary that this brings your car to life. Here's hoping it will. Would really like to see it regularly and possibly ride in it too. Have always wanted to ride in a Saturn V rocket.

[MacDee]

I've done a little more tuning with the points; bumped the dwell up to 41 degrees. She runs pretty good! Still sputters a bit cruising down the road, but nothing severe. Little bit of a flat spot when you dip into the throttle. Stops and idles okay. Idles about 1200 in neutral, 900 in gear, and I don't have to keep my foot on the gas [thumb].

I took her to the Kla Ha Ya Days car show in Snohomish yesterday. Nice show, saw three other Falcons. I was able to talk to two of the owners and told them about Rainier Falcons. Neither of them knew about us. On the trip home, I floored it once to see if "Mr Saturn" was there. He wasn't, but still pretty pleasant to drive now (relatively speaking). I think I'm going to come to the Shoreline show this weekend, too. Looks like fun!

[falcon cobra]

Gary if you don't know by now a holley is well known for just that, not smooth and a number things I could list, and sorry to say points just don't get it nowadays,you spent a lot to do this don't get tight $ now and you will be much happy'r down the road....jh:rocker:

[falcon cobra]

Roger I don't know who said that but it's wrong! the GM mod. has nothing to do with that. its only a transistor switch that fires the coil...jh[BOW]

[Luva65wagon]

I don't think Gary is sparing much expense here. He's just not wanting to spend money on something he doesn't need and spend it where he does.

Not to hijack this thread, the GM module I'm talking about did have a retard function, but I'm not sure how it works yet. Still researching it. Seems to be based upon a vacuum feed to the computer-that-was. The suggestion was to use this in the start circuit to emulate the same 10-degree retard the DSII module provides when the engine is starting.

[MacDee]

Gary if you don't know by now a holley is well known for just that, not smooth and a number things I could list, and sorry to say points just don't get it nowadays,you spent a lot to do this don't get tight $ now and you will be much happy'r down the road

Don't worry, John. The points are just a stop-gap until I get a REAL ignition system. Once I get a DSII capacitor-discharge system of some kind in there, I'll get serious with timing curve and carb tuning. I'm sure she can be made to run much better, but it's pointless (sorry.. pun) to invest the time until the FINAL ignition system is installed.

I'm just really stoked right now that she's running as good as she does with just POINTS!

[MacDee]

Just finished installing my new Street Fire CD ignition system! I used a Duraspark II distributor, did the "thing" (http://www.classicinlines.com/DSIIswap.asp#Recurve) with the curve springs, and installed it all with the Street Fire ignition box. It runs a lot better! I was able to cut back on idle speed even more; it's now idling comfortably in gear at 900 and she cruises down the road very sweetly. The throttle response still sucks a bit, but "Mr Atlas" made a return appearance on the test drive! :3g:
Gotta re-do the fuel line. With the bigger dizzy there's barely room for it the way I have it routed between the distributor and the head! Need to do some serious tuning, too, to see if I can improve the throttle response. At least now she's responding to attempts at tuning her up!

Feeling better....

[redfalken]

Great news! Is the Street Fire similar to the 6AL? I like my 6A and Duraspark combo. I read the Street Fire has dials on the side to adjust the rev limiter and a diagnostic LED.

[MacDee]

Yes, the Street Fire is almost identical in features to the 6AL for less money than a 6A. From what I understand, it's actually spec'd and marketed by MSD, but is foreign-made. I guess the 6AL also has some flexibility for upgrades the Street Fire lacks. It has an adjustable rev limiter just like the 6AL, and an LED, but I don't recall what the LED indicates :confused:.

Info:
http://www.street-fire.com/cdiignition.html

[MacDee]

I re-read some of the articles I've collected on ignition timing and Duraspark tuning. Armed with refreshed knowledge, I went out to the garage last Saturday and put the timing light to Freddie. The articles seem to indicate that I should be shooting for 38-42 degrees Total Advance (for 9.0 to 9.5 CR). I discovered I was only getting about 30, and that's with the initial timing set to about 12-14 BTDC! Hmm... Could this explain the poor throttle response?
Another article explained how to flip the upper advance shaft (I think that's what they called it) around to utilize the OTHER advance-limit notch. With much anxiety, I tore into the distributor. It was a very tense session, but I did finally manage to get all the way down to the upper advance shaft and see that it was set on the shorter notch. After struggling another hour just to get the upper advance shaft off, I finally succeeded in flipping it to the longer notch. I re-assembled everything and set the initial timing per the vacuum gauge method (it always seems to come out about 12-14 BTDC). This time, the Total Advance checked out to about 36 degrees.
I took her for a test drive, and BOY, WHAT A DIFFERENCE! The throttle response is quite good now, and when I push it into passing gear, she really SCOOTS! [yay]

There are still a ton of issues to address, but at least she's comfortably road-worthy now. I'm looking forward to taking her out on drives, JUST FOR THE FUN OF IT!!

[BillP 98201]

Glad to hear you are making progress. Arent the little victories exciting? :BEER:

[redfalken]

Very cool! It's amazing what a difference a few degrees will make. It inspired we to do some more reading last night on the theory behind the advance curve. I have the DSII spring kit and need to tear into my dizzy some day to experiment.

[Luva65wagon]

As I mentioned somewhere to someone I also did this DSII thing to the Flarechero and the instructions on the Classic Inlines page said I would see a heavy and light gauge spring inside, but I saw two identical springs. I looked at pictures as well as I could to do it, but I'll probably need to track it to see what it's doing in reality. Have only driven it from the garage to the carport.

Glad it's going better for you though Gary.

Say, on a different subject - who did you buy Freddie from and how did it get that name?

[redfalken]

Here's a link a lot of people refer to for the DSII:

http://reincarnation-automotive.com/Duraspark_distributor_recurve_instructions_index.h tml

I'll probably tear into mine this weekend and see what I can accomplish. Jeff's loaning me his fancy, new adjustable timing light so I can plot the advance curve. Unless someone has a Sun distributor tester I can come over and use!!

[MacDee]

Say, on a different subject - who did you buy Freddie from and how did it get that name?

Carter Burns actually found the car on the Boeing on-line classified ads. It was owned by a couple who both worked at Boeing. I think it was actually the wife's car, and she owned it before they were married. I know this because at the Greenwood show, in about 2002, I think, I guy came up to me and said he knew my car. "It was owned by..." and mentioned the first name of the wife (I've forgotten her name), and a different last name. I started to say, "Oh yeah, her name is now..." He cut me off and said "I don't want to know". He was apparently with her when she bought it!

"Freddie" was chosen because the front license plate frame indicates it was purchased at some prior transaction (probably by the aforementioned "wife") at Fred's Fine Cars.

[Luva65wagon]

Ah - OK. Just curious after having talked to Dave (Modified17) who said Jim Frey who was part of an earlier iteration of our local Falcon club, once sold a 63 hardtop also named Freddy. I thought it was an odd coinkydink if it hadn't been to you. And I guess it wasn't. But now you know there is another 63 hardtop out there named Freddy.

[MacDee]

But now you know there is another 63 hardtop out there named Freddy.

Al Langsett (Alsprint) calls his Sprint "Freddy" ...with a "y". Could it be...?

By the way, it turns out we got "engine #2" from Dave. We ended up not using it, but the rocker assembly and push rods from it are currently installed in [my] Freddie!

[Luva65wagon]

Could very well have been Jim Frey's car. Would be odd to have 3 Fred-y-ish cars locally.

Wonder if Al still pops up on here anymore. Al? You out there?

Dave's cool. He's got a couple Falcons for sale right now. Wish I had more room around here... (NO - YOU - DON'T :bicker:). Uh... maybe I don't.

[BillP 98201]

Roger there is a sean delivery on Craigslist for 999 [BOW]

[Falcon1]

Did you check your firing order? With all else you've done, it's just a thought. Crossed plug wire is easy to do.

[MacDee]

I finally got around to installing the “other” light spring in my Duraspark distributor yesterday. I believe it is now equivalent to the one Kenny had done by Vintage Racing Motors. It is as much as I can do with the ignition, but the throttle response still sucks. It acts like the accelerator pump almost isn’t working….
So…
I got out my Tech Information Bulletin on How to Tune a Holley (http://www.corvette-restoration.com/resources/technical_papers/Holley_Carb_Tuning.pdf) and went to the section on accelerator pumps. First thing it says, in essence: “don’t mess with the accelerator pump until you’ve got everything else about right…”. So I went back to the beginning of the Bulletin and started reading:

1. Bench-Set the Idle Speed.
This section describes setting the secondary throttle plates so .020 of the transition slot is exposed below the plates. The adjuster screw for the secondary idle is on the underside of the carb, so you need to remove the carb to get at it. I don’t know where my secondary throttle plates are sitting at idle, but the engine is now idling nicely (well, considering the cam…), in gear, at around 800-900 rpm. I THINK what I want to do is remove the carb and do a “light gap” check; see how much light comes through the bores with the plates closed. What I think I want to do is adjust both primary and secondary idle speed screws so the total amount of light is about the same as it currently is, but is equally distributed between the primary and secondary bores. (I’m guessing I’ll need to open the secondaries and close the primaries each a tad.)

2. Set the Float Level.
Roger did this to my carb once. It was a while ago, but I don’t think I’ve really done anything to the carb since. I don’t know if it should be done again or not….

3. Make sure your Power Valve is in the ballpark.
It describes choosing a power valve based on your manifold vacuum at idle in gear (for an automatic). Because of the cam and intake manifold, my vacuum at idle is typically pretty low. I’d bet money I need a different power valve.

4. Now get the main metering circuit in the ballpark.
It describes checking mixture by reading spark plugs. I believe someone in the club has a meter that can check this directly? I do have a bung welded into the RH exhaust pipe….

5. Tweak your idle mixture screws.
Funny how the FIRST thing you usually do should be the FIFTH thing you actually do! Again, I don’t think I’ve touched the idle mixture screws since Carter set them a year and a half ago!

6. NOW FINE TUNE THE ACCELERATOR PUMP CIRCUIT.
Looks like a really complicated process of determining the right pump cam and shooter size to use based on trial-and-error.

7. Set the secondary opening rate.
Change out secondary diaphragm springs until the secondaries open “just right”.

Needless to say, perhaps, but I am really intimidated by all of this. Would it be possible to have a sort-of mini tech day, if for no other reason than to give me the courage to attempt this?

[redfalken]

I'd be up for it if I'm available. I need to do the same thing to my Weber this weekend. I put in a few different jets and now need to dig up the instructions I printed out.

Other than 6 jets you can swap out, the Weber only has a few adjustments and doesn't sound as complicated as yours. I always have to read through the instructions at least a couple of times before I do the procedure.

Most people say to get your timing down before you even start to mess with air/fuel (carbs in our case) and it sounds like you have that down.

[MacDee]

Most people say to get your timing down before you even start to mess with air/fuel (carbs in our case) and it sounds like you have that down.

Yeah, since "factory specs" doesn't mean anything with this engine, I use the vacuum gauge method: Set the timing at idle (set as low as possible) so you just get maximum vacuum, then back off the timing until the vacuum drops 2 in Hg. When I do this, it usually comes out about 12 deg BTDC (though it's kinda hard to check now with the multi-spark Street Fire ignition!).

[Luva65wagon]

Gary,

With what time you've driven and run this - have you read the plugs yet? Wet, black, tan, white?

[SmithKid]

Like Kenny, depending on availability, I'm always up for tech days. One of the best way to learn.

[Luva65wagon]

Like Kenny, depending on availability, I'm always up for tech days. one of the best way to learn.

Agreed - just need to post a thread with some dates in the announcements section and we can decide on when. We can only fit so many under one hood - but maybe more heads are better with this one.

[MacDee]

With what time you've driven and run this - have you read the plugs yet? Wet, black, tan, white?

I've had the plugs out, but I couldn't seem to "read" anything! They're... ambiguous? It's been a while, though. Perhaps I can go out tonight and pull a couple.

[falcon cobra]

So what does that mean?? they are either white, tan or black. I have never seen a plug that color....jh

[Luva65wagon]

You've never seen the color ambiguous? :p

Gary - would be worth pulling them all and heck - maybe even shoot a picture of them in good light and posting it.

When I first got the Flarechero running, Gene and I were out in the garage, but it was dead of Winter and I only opened my little side-door. Man we were choked out with fumes like we were next to a nitro funny car. OK, not that bad, but almost. The plugs were wet and black - meaning I was running real rich. Turned out to be the carb was totally messed up, but reading the plugs showed me that. White means the thing is running very lean. Like seeing new plugs. It's probably run long enough that some may be going tan - which is ideal. If you plugs are real new, they may be only wet if running real rich, but it doesn't take long for plugs to get written all over.

I hate Holleys when it comes to tuning them. A Carter/Edelbrock with the removable needles made this a breeze to play with. I have the kit - as well as a carb laying around that I pulled off the black truck. It needs to be opened up and looked at (which is why it got replaced when I got stranded in Des Moines with it. New carb was cheaper than the hassle of a tow... almost). If you want to try it - we could bring it to the tech day. That'll give me a chance to do a little autopsy on it first. It had just been rebuilt, but these things are too big to dunk in a gallon can of carb cleaner and I only did it with a spray-can of Berrymans.

[SmithKid]

Hope I'm not out of line here, but I was taught that plug readings should only be taken shortly after normal conditions, unless extreme out of tune conditions exist (i.e. - even to the point of pulling to the side of the road or a rest stop?). Reason. Just running in the driveway or something similar will "color" your readings. I believe normal operating temperature is required. But maybe this just applies in racing or extreme conditions? Discussion? Differing opinions?

[pbrown]

Don't forget that I have a handheld wide band O2 meter and Freddy does have a O2 bung in place for this. I'll tag along depending on date.

[SmithKid]

I guess I'm only saying that unless you find an extreme reading on the plugs (sooty, wet, or scorched), this technique is usually more for fine-tuning.

[Luva65wagon]

Yes Gene you are technically correct. In a situation where you are grasping at straws, (and since Gary can drive it I think) it should be something we can have him do just to get an idea of what might be going on.

And yes, I think it needs to be a day when Patrick can come with his reader.

So Gary - set up a few days that work for you and we'll see what days are best for those of us who might want to poke our head under your hood.

[MacDee]

Gary can drive it I think

Yeah, she actually runs pretty good now. Just sputters a bunch when I toe the throttle.



So Gary - set up a few days that work for you and we'll see what days are best for those of us who might want to poke our head under your hood.I'll try to come up with some dates to choose from, and pull the plugs tonight to get a photo to post.

[MacDee]

I'll try to come up with some dates to choose from, and pull the plugs tonight to get a photo to post.

Well, I'll need to pull the plugs tomorrow night.... Steppin' out tonight!

Can do any weekend day starting March 24.

[MacDee]

I took the plugs out and got some pics. They're black. Running rich?

I started her up, got her warmed up and checked the vacuum at idle in gear. Right at 10" Hg. The Bulletin states I should use a power valve rated about 2" below that, about 8" then...?

[Luva65wagon]

What plugs did you decide on for this? Gap?

[redfalken]

Looks like it might be running rich to me. Does the exhaust have a fuel smell? Unless the plugs have some unusual heat range, I'd say too much fuel.

I would go for a cruise, shut off the engine right as you take your foot off the gas, and coast into your driveway. Don't let it idle. Try to be going 20 mph or more right before you shut it down. Then check the plugs and compare.

I'm guessing the engine was idleing for a little bit before you last turned off the engine.

[MacDee]

What plugs did you decide on for this? Gap?
Plugs are Autolite AR3933. (Hard to find...) Gap is .040.


Does the exhaust have a fuel smell?
Yeah. Smells a lot! Smells up the whole house when I'm in the garage messin' with it.

[falcon cobra]

Gary this is what a plug should look like with unleaded gas today, this plug has about 8000 miles on it, it's out of my falcon with a Q-jet carb. yours has some oil mixed with the gas, you can tell because it has gone up the threads clear to the gasket, I would check the needle and seat in the carb, sometimes people forget to put a gasket under the seat, or they are not tight, so when you put it in the garage the fuel expands and runs over and makes a big stink, and like some have said its a holly....jh

[Luva65wagon]

Gary, I would take the time to pull that carb off and document all the parts it has in it. It is clearly running rich. You got something wacky still with that carb I think.

In addition I don't know whether I would have used the racing plugs. I don't know enough about them but even the CI site only recommends those plugs when you're running boost, which you're not. Probably not the issue, but just an observation.

[MacDee]

Gary, I would take the time to pull that carb off and document all the parts it has in it. It is clearly running rich. You got something wacky still with that carb I think.

I pulled the carb off and discovered:
1. The secondaries are COMPLETELY CLOSED. The Holley manual says that the primaries and secondaries should be open an equal amount at idle.
2. The accelerator pump cam is orange and is attached in the #2 hole.
3. The accelerator pump shooter is a #25.
4. The idle mixture screws were turned out three turns on the left side, and two and a half turns on the right side.
I didn't feel comfortable going after the power valve.... However, some old-timer at a car show a couple of years ago told me he hated Holley carbs "'cause the power valves always blew out when the engine back-fired." Mine back-fired once.

The carb is still off. Waitin' to hear comments.


In addition I don't know whether I would have used the racing plugs. I don't know enough about them but even the CI site only recommends those plugs when you're running boost, which you're not. Probably not the issue, but just an observation.

The "AR" plugs are easier to find than the "A" plugs. I got the impression that it didn't matter much.

[pbrown]

Newer Holley carbs have power valve blowout protection. You should continue to tare the carb down. Pull the float bowl(s) and document the jets. Pull the power valve and document the value. You may have a higher value power valve and low idle or part throttle vacuum which will cause the power valve to be open more that it should. This would cause an overly rich condition.

Your power valve value should be 1-2 lbs lower than the vacuum recorded at idle when the engine is warm and the car is in drive (automatics only).

[MacDee]

Pull the float bowl(s) and document the jets. Pull the power valve and document the value.

I pulled the bowl on the primary side. The main jets are stamped with "512". I don't know how to identify the power valve. There are three numbers stamped on it. One is a five. The two others are sixes or nines depending on how you look at them! I've read Holleys usually come with power valves rated at 6.5?


Your power valve value should be 1-2 lbs lower than the vacuum recorded at idle when the engine is warm and the car is in drive (automatics only).

Yeah, she idles, in gear, at about 10 in Hg. Does that mean I should get a power valve rated at 8.5?

[MacDee]

I found this quote on the Holley web site tech section; a Q & A about power valve selection:

QUESTION How do I tell what size power valve I need?
ANSWER To properly size a power valve, take a vaccum reading at idle and if it is above 12" for a standard transmission a 6.5" will be safe to use. For automatic transmissions take a vaccume reading in gear at idle and if the vaccum is below 12" divide that in half for proper size. Example 9" of vaccume in gear at idle will require a 4.5" power valve.

My vacuum at idle in gear is 10", so, according to this, I should use a 5.5" power valve.

Hmm... :confused:

[Luva65wagon]

Sound like to me a call needs to be made to Holley (or Googled about regarding the numbers you are finding on the one you have) to see what PV you have now.

You ought to also talk to their support staff anyway and explain what you are dealing with, what you have in your carb now, what other things you can offer about the motor, and see if these guys - who eat/sleep/drink Holleys - can offer as options. They may have other jets they can send you to try. Who knows.

Personally... I still have a hard time (always have) on the need for a 4 barrel carb on a 6. Unless it was built totally to race. But that's just me. I know it looks cool and all, but I think it (or at least "this it") is probably the leading cause of all your agony.

[falcon cobra]

I just looked at a dvd I got about carbs, and it says you take the vacuum, lets say it's 10in, divide it by two and thats five so a 4.5 or 5 power valve is what you need. also carb size, you multiply cu.in X rpm and divide it by 3456, so a 200ci motor at 5000 rpm = 289 cfm. a rochester 2 bbl would be just right.....jh

[Luva65wagon]

Or a Ford or Holley or Weber 2 barrel. I have 3 or 4 Ford 2 barrel 2100 carbs laying around - plus that Holley you had before. My 78 F350 with a 351M and a mild RV cam only has a 2 barrel carb and does a great job of getting down the road.

So why the choice of this particular 4 barrel. That is my ask? Did CI recommend it? What was it's original part number on the box?

[falcon cobra]

Kenny, or who ever.. do you how much cfm your webber is? does that have a primary and a secondary or do they work together..jh :shift:

[redfalken]

I think my Weber 32/36 DGV (similar to the Holley 5200) is 270 cfm. It's progressive so it's running 1bbl most of the time until your just past halfway to WOT.

[Jeff W]

Gary, don't let the man drag you down. I like the four barrel. When you get it dialed in, I'm sure we will all be jealous. I appreciate the unique... I'm thinking of going with the fuel delivery of an eye dropper being gravity fed by a Korean era GI canteen.[thumb]

[falcon cobra]

Good luck, maybe dual quads would look nice also, but now you can go and dial it in for him, and patrick, me , kenny and freddy can go to the drags sometime and we will see....jh:banana:

[pbrown]

Bring it to my place and we can spend a day getting it dialed in. IIRC, that carb is a Holley 390 (correct me of I'm wrong Gary. The first place to start is to get the idle circuit dialed in. The main jets do nothing at low RPM. The power valve should also not be in play here. We can install a power valve plug to eliminate it as a variable if needed.

Getting the idle tuned involved getting the idle jets dialed in. Start with the idle screws and tune to best vacuum. The idle RPM will change. Readjust it to a reasonable setting. Now don't assume that we're done with idle at this point. If the idle mix screws are out too much or in too far, you need to adjust the IFR (idle feed restrictor) and IAB (idle air bleed). The IFR is basically a jet for the idle circuit. It can and needs to be sized larger or smaller to get the idle mix screws in the sweet spot. I have all the tools and most of the parts to make these changes and can do it at my place to bring them anywhere.

Once idle is done, we can look at the main circuits. This involved playing with the main jets (how much fuel) and the HSAB (high speed air bleeds) to determine when the mains come active.

There seems to be a lot of voodo when it comes to carb tuning. It is actually very scientific. Start with idle, then cruise, then wide open (dyno needed for the last part). It really helps to have a wideband tool with MAP and TPS.

[pbrown]

Here are some helpful links regarding carb tuning with a wide band tool.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/carb_EFI_mileage.php
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/carb-central.php

[Luva65wagon]

If his motor is overcarbureted should we all just sit back and say "ah, but it sure looks cool, doesn't it?"

:confused:

FWIW I didn't know that it was, or wasn't when I posted. If it's really only a 390 CFM carb, then maybe not. But I didn't know that.

I guess you should just put it back together Gary and arrange a day to take it over to Patrick's.

[pbrown]

Ultimately this is Gary's call. I'll help in any way I can. He can certainly try the 2 barrel. I thought the carb he has was recomended when he bought the aluminum head.

[pbrown]

I see that Barry Grant has a nie 2-barrel available now.

http://www.barrygrant.com/demon/default.aspx?page=5a

[pbrown]

And then there is Holley's version of the same carb.

http://www.holley.com/0-7448.asp
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-0-7448/

Note that both are 350 CFM which is still large for a 200ci engine but could be made to work well with proper tuning.

Either the BG or this Holley would be a better start point than the 390 four barrel.

[MacDee]

Truly, the four-barrel is up on the little six mostly for WOW value. For me, the whole purpose of doing this project was to have something totally unique, and possibly even outrageous to show at car shows. A souped-up six is certainly unique. I see these occasionally at shows (like Roger’s wagon!) and I am impressed! Seeing a four-barrel on a CI aluminum head would be OUTRAGEOUS! So, of course, THAT’S what I wanted!


As for being over-carbureted, it is a model 8007, which is rated at 390 cfm. I did some Desktop Dyno studies, and according to that, my setup should be good for 265 hp @ 6250 rpm. Whether or not this is reasonable, it indicates I should size the carb to about 360 cfm. Hence, the selection of the 390 cfm carb.


In retrospect, I sincerely wish I had chosen to do something more conservative. My Desktop Dyno study also revealed that a milder cam (264 degree vs. my 274) would have provided much better torque and power under normal street operation, but I was seduced by big numbers, and impressed with a similar setup used by someone on the FordSix forum who’s six cylinder Mustang was running low 14’s in the quarter. There are vague plans in the back of my mind to someday perhaps “de-tune” to a milder setup.


In the meantime, I really need to get the old gal running decently so I can start to enjoy her again. I do believe, finally, that I am close. She does run pretty well except for her reluctance to “go” when I push the “go” pedal. I am encouraged, but it still needs to be better before I’ll “enjoy”.

I appreciate everyone’s input. Taking it all into consideration, I believe I will stand by the four-barrel, at least for now. With your encouragement, I’ve successfully taken the thing apart and found a couple of issues. This weekend I’ll put it back together and try setting it up again, from scratch. If I still can’t get it running acceptably, I’ll make an appointment with Dr. Brown.

[MacDee]

I read one guys putting a 4 carb on his 6 cylinder, wow.

See? Like I said...

[falcon cobra]

Gary what is the vacuum gage method ? do you have a timing light and a tach? what RPM does it idle at in netural and in drive...jh

[MacDee]

Gary what is the vacuum gage method ? do you have a timing light and a tach? what RPM does it idle at in netural and in drive...jh

Vacuum gage method is: set timing to where vacuum is just at its maximum, and then back off the timing until you lose 2" of vacuum.

I have a timing light, but with the multi-spark Street Fire ignition, the timing light shows the timing mark bouncing all over the place!

I have a tach, and it idles in gear at about 900 rpm. In neutral, it idles at about 1200.

[MacDee]

So,
I've got some time this Saturday. The carb is off, so I'm contemplating taking the intake off as well to re-connect coolant lines to it. (Yes, it IS necessary to remove the intake... to screw in the fittings!) Of course, if the intake is off, it's probably the ideal time to replace the heater core, right?

Can someone tell me if it's reasonable to do all this, plus re-install the carb and re-tune in about six hours... even for someone unRoger-like? Is there anything I should watch out for? I need to replace the heater motor as well. Is that easy?

Thanks!

[Luva65wagon]

Well... I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd have no problem.

:ROTFLMAO:

[SmithKid]

This "anyone else" would like to help. It even looks like Ma Nature is going to help. What are the six hours you have available?

[MacDee]

I'll probably get started around 10:00. Got some debris to pick up out in the yard first.

I'll PM my address.

[pbrown]

Gene and I dropped by to help Gary. The heater rebuild was put on hold until Gary can order a heater box rebuild kit. There is some lovely duct tape covering the hole until next time.

We did get the intake installed and carb reassembled. I brought my handheld O2 sensor so we gave that a try. This engine combo is suffering from a very lean idle. The AFR is at about 19:1 AFR once running the best we could get it. It cruises nicely at 14-15 AFR. We just need to work on that idle. The Idle Feed Restrictors (idle jets) need to be enlarged. I didn't have my carb tools with me so this will need to wait for another day.

[falcon cobra]

So why are the plugs black if it's very lean at idle?...jh:confused:

[pbrown]

Maybe that plug was from after a drive. The wideband O2 tool does not lie. It's definitely very lean at idle.

[MacDee]

So why are the plugs black if it's very lean at idle?...jh:confused:
My guess is it may have had too much choke. With the way I had my choke adjusted, my start-up routine typically had it running choked and on fast idle for a good five minutes before it would idle on its own.

Could that cause sooty plugs?

[pbrown]

Just out of curiosity, I called Quick Fuel Technologies. They make an replacement billet metering block that is fully tunable. Sadly, they do not have one for the 390. They did tell me that they could take the stock style cast block and modify one for changeable air bleeds, power valve circuit and IRFs for about $50. One of these would mean that we could do some idle jet adjustment without altering the original metering block.

Another option is to just alter the original metering block to get more fuel at idle.

Let me know if you want to pursue any of this.

[MacDee]

Hmm...
You mentioned the air bleeds could be modified by replacing the bleed inserts with drilled-out set screws? Theoretically, wouldn't that allow going back to "stock" settings at a later date?
I'm curious about this, because at some later date I may want to change to a "milder" cam, and then perhaps need to go back to something closer to "standard" air bleeds.

[falcon cobra]

Hey Kenny, does your MSD box cause nighmares when you use a timing light like gary says his does? I have never heard of that, I don't remember timing a motor with a MSD, if I did I never found a problem....jh

[pbrown]

Hey Kenny, does your MSD box cause nighmares when you use a timing light like gary says his does? I have never heard of that, I don't remember timing a motor with a MSD, if I did I never found a problem....jh

My timing light works fine with the CD multi spark boxes. I also have an older Sears Craftsman that also works with MSD.

[pbrown]

Hmm...
You mentioned the air bleeds could be modified by replacing the bleed inserts with drilled-out set screws? Theoretically, wouldn't that allow going back to "stock" settings at a later date?
I'm curious about this, because at some later date I may want to change to a "milder" cam, and then perhaps need to go back to something closer to "standard" air bleeds.

Yes. All of the bleeds could be changed to screw in types so that the carb can be returned to stock. I can do this for you if you want to make the changes.

Can you also post your cam specs? Is it the 274/274 112*?

[redfalken]

Hey Kenny, does your MSD box cause nighmares when you use a timing light like gary says his does? I have never heard of that, I don't remember timing a motor with a MSD, if I did I never found a problem....jh

My older Craftsman works but I did borrow a dial back light that was giving me some numbers that were WAY out of range. Of course MSD makes one that works fine. I did some internet research and brands that work or not are all over the place.

[MacDee]

Can you also post your cam specs? Is it the 274/274 112*?

Yes, that is exactly right: 274/274 int/exh duration, 112 deg lobe centers.

[falcon cobra]

Do you happen to know what the duration is at .050?

[pbrown]

Do you happen to know what the duration is at .050?

Adv Duration = 274/274
@.050 = 224/224
lift = .450/.450
lobe center = 112
RPM range = 2800-6700


I've been reading a lot and posted a couple of threads in the ether. I've had two people say that this cam needs more initial advance which I'm thinking is a good idea. I'd like to set it to about 20 BTDC. This will mean that the mechanical advance will need to be limited to 16-18 for a total advance of 36-38.

Another more advanced tuning site theorized that the lean condition was because of the cam overlap mixing exhaust in the cylinder at idle much like an EGR valve would. He speculated that the plugs would also look sooty as they do even though we are way lean.

[falcon cobra]

Wow thats a lot of cam for a C-4 , and 2800 to 6700 , my 5.0 runs only 2600 @ 60mph, and it has a E-303 which is 220@ .050 and it's 12in vac at idle 900rpm, are you sure it don't have a bad vacume leak? my trucks 2.3 motor has a cam thats 224in 234ex @.050 and it shows 15in. vac @1000rpm....jh

[pbrown]

are you sure it don't have a bad vacuum leak?

I was thinking the same think earlier in this thread. We resealed the intake with Permatex so that is leak free for sure. The carbs small vacuum ports are both capped. There is only the C4 vacuum modulator and PCV valve in place right now. It would be easy to eliminate both of these just to be sure.

[64racer]

I'm running a Crane cam Dur. 244/252 @.050 lift is 553/572 108 lobe sep.
I am at 12deg. and 36 total. That's with a C4 and 5000 stall. I just put my car on the dyno at Maxwells performance in Marysville two weeks ago.
It is a 306. After some carb tuning (750 dbl pumper) we got 304hp and 445ft lbs torque. At first it was 300 and 408 on first pull. The better torque should help some off the line. I had it running a little to rich. It has been running 12.25 to 12.30s et. Might be time for a 363ci next year!:)

[falcon cobra]

That car is a runner for sure, I'd be lucky to get mine in the low 14's do you ever go to pacfic raceways? we should have a falcon meet there sometime...jh:3g:

[64racer]

I don't get to Pacific very often. It would be fun to get a few Falcons out there.
I was thinking about going there before I go up to Mission to race. I need to do a little more tuning with accelerator pump cams.

[falcon cobra]

I have a box of those cams if you need! ..jh

[64racer]

Thanks, I already bought a box myself. I think I have it pretty close now.
On the dyno it showed a little dip at initial throttle. It got better when I put in a bigger squiter in the primary. I put a different cam on it. But we didn't make another pull after that. I was there from 10 AM to 3 PM. Cost me $529.00! But it was fun. And I did see some improvement. I have worked the last 2 weekends. So I paid for it! Ha! One of these days I'll take a night off and make it to a meeting. Been working 2nd shift here for 16 years. I'm one of those crazy people that like it! Wayne

[pbrown]

Hey Gary,

Just getting back to your engine. Tell me about your torque converter. Is it a stall converter and if so, what RPM?

[MacDee]

Hey Gary,

Just getting back to your engine. Tell me about your torque converter. Is it a stall converter and if so, what RPM?

A sad story here....
I knew I was going to need a higher stall speed, so I found a place in Auburn that said they could re-build mine to a higher stall speed. I asked for 2600. Alas, apparently the guy I talked to didn't talk to the guy that did the work, and I got back a really nicely rebuilt torque converter... ...with stock stall speed. Of course, I had that done more than a year before we ever put the engine in the car, and because of the trouble I've had getting it to run at all, I only figured this out recently. The stall speed is about 1500. :(

[MacDee]

I've been reading a lot and posted a couple of threads in the ether. I've had two people say that this cam needs more initial advance...
I wonder if they meant the cam timing, not the ignition timing. It was suggested on the FordSix forum that I should maybe have advanced the cam 4 degrees. It's another thing on my "to do" list.


Another more advanced tuning site theorized that the lean condition was because of the cam overlap mixing exhaust in the cylinder at idle much like an EGR valve would. He speculated that the plugs would also look sooty as they do even though we are way lean.
Would advancing the cam timing (intake valve closing earlier) affect this?

[pbrown]

I wonder if they meant the cam timing, not the ignition timing. It was suggested on the FordSix forum that I should maybe have advanced the cam 4 degrees. It's another thing on my "to do" list.


Would advancing the cam timing (intake valve closing earlier) affect this?

They were speaking ignition timing for sure.

How old is the gas in your tank? I'm only asking because Gene and I heard some slight pinging at idle when in gear.

[pbrown]

A sad story here....
I knew I was going to need a higher stall speed, so I found a place in Auburn that said they could re-build mine to a higher stall speed. I asked for 2600. Alas, apparently the guy I talked to didn't talk to the guy that did the work, and I got back a really nicely rebuilt torque converter... ...with stock stall speed. Of course, I had that done more than a year before we ever put the engine in the car, and because of the trouble I've had getting it to run at all, I only figured this out recently. The stall speed is about 1500. :(

This could be a problem with this engine combo.

[MacDee]

They were speaking ignition timing for sure.

How old is the gas in your tank? I'm only asking because Gene and I heard some slight pinging at idle when in gear.
I think I filled it last fall. And I always fill it with Premium.

[pbrown]

Gary,

Do you have an air compressor?

[MacDee]

Do you have an air compressor?

No.

(Reply must be at least 10 characters, so this parenthetical statement is added)

[pbrown]

My thoughts were to try running air up through the missing baseplate screws. I just heard back from Holley stating that they aren't there anyway. I was thinking that they may be contributing to a vacuum leak. Since Holley says they are not there from the factory, we can probably rule that out.

[pbrown]

What are the pistons in this engine? Are they flat top or dished? If dished, what CC? Were the pistons installed with zero deck?

[MacDee]

What are the pistons in this engine? Are they flat top or dished? If dished, what CC? Were the pistons installed with zero deck?
Flat-top pistons, zero deck, 56cc chambers. Cylinders are .040-over.

Compression ratio: 9.52:1
Dynamic Compression Ratio: 7.42:1

The aluminum head has pretty big chambers so it can be used with 200 or 250 without the compression ratio going wild with either one. 200's generally need to run flat-top pistons, while 250's would use dished pistons.

[Luva65wagon]

I have a job-site compressor if you need to haul one over to Gary's for anything. Just in case.

[pbrown]

I finished Freddie's primary metering block this morning. The stock IFR size was .028 (#70). I drilled and tapped with a 6-32 bottoming tap and added 6-32 x 1/8" brass set screws. The IFRs are now .0292 (#69). The brass set screws now make this circuit completely adjustable.

I'm hoping that this allows us to richen up the idle circuit. The carb is running pretty well otherwise.

[MacDee]

I got the radiator re-installed last night, so I think we're ready to proceed.
I absolutely MUST do some yard work this weekend, but I can probably squeeze in a trip to Ballard to get the metering block. It's supposed to be raining again on Monday. Perhaps that will be my opportunity to reassemble and install the carb.

[MacDee]

I got the modified metering block back from Pat today. I'll be re-assembling the carb and installing it tomorrow (May 28).
We'll find out if the IFR circuit has been the problem all along. I'm betting it is!

[pbrown]

I got the modified metering block back from Pat today. I'll be re-assembling the carb and installing it tomorrow (May 28).
We'll find out if the IFR circuit has been the problem all along. I'm betting it is!

Fingers crossed.

[MacDee]

Okay...
I put the carb back together and installed it. (I put it together with a 5.5 in Hg power valve that Pat included with the modified metering block.) I pre-set the idle mixture screws at two turns out and got her running. At first, it wouldn't idle at all. I turned the screws out another half turn. Then it ran fine, but I don't think it was because of the idle mixture screws. I'll explain in a minute.
I set the idle speed such that it would idle nicely in gear and took her for a short test drive. About three-quarter's of mile into to test drive, she started running sour, and she wouldn't idle. I nursed her back into the garage, opened the idle mixture screws one more turn each (now thee and a half). I checked/set the timing with the vacuum gauge method, and decided to hook up the vacuum advance. Now she was running really well, so I took her for a more extended test drive. She ran beautifully... for about 15 minutes. Then, about two miles from reaching home, she started running sour again, and by the time I reached my driveway, she wouldn't idle.
I'm wondering if I'm still experiencing vapor lock. However, the first time it wouldn't idle today was when I first fired her up. The fuel line certainly wasn't hot then! I have replaced that silly plastic fuel filter that I was using with metal one. I felt it right after I got her back into the garage, but it didn't feel particularly hot. Of course, it could be boiling somewhere else in the line....
I'm going to try to route a new (temporary?) fuel line, rubber hose all the way. I bought a length of steel fuel line tubing (with flare and nut), and a big length of fuel hose. I can at least see if if makes a difference.

[MacDee]

So I re-did the fuel line. Just a stub of steel line coming up out of the fuel pump, straight into the fuel filter, then a long hose over the top straight into the carburetor.
I took another test drive, longer, still, than this morning. It ran beautifully... for about 20 minutes this time. Then it started to run sour again, but it didn't get so bad I had to nurse it, and seemed to improve, maybe, a bit, as I went. After I got back to my street, I pulled off and just let it idle. Which it did, just fine. I shut it off and restarted, no problem, drove it the rest of the way home, and let it idle a couple minutes in my driveway. Again, no problem.
But why does it want to go sour once in a while for no apparent reason?

:confused:

[Jeff W]

I know we have different set -ups but my bird is experiencing nearly the same symptoms. Kenny and I even pulled the sending unit in the tank so we could take a look at the filter sock. It was fine. I am tired of fighting this ghost and am moving up the timetable on my 200 C4 swap.

I'm no help with your issue but sometimes misery loves company.

[MacDee]

I know we have different set -ups but my bird is experiencing nearly the same symptoms. Kenny and I even pulled the sending unit in the tank so we could take a look at the filter sock. It was fine. I am tired of fighting this ghost and am moving up the timetable on my 200 C4 swap.

I'm no help with your issue but sometimes misery loves company.
Thanks, Jeff!
Now I'm wondering if I have a clogged gas tank vent. I didn't think my gas cap (poor-fitting aftermarket locking cap) sealed well enough that it would make a difference, but....

Perhaps my next test drive will be with the gas cap removed?

[falcon cobra]

I don't what this has to do with your problem but lately my car runs fine but when it gets hot it don't want to run all the great, idle and slow speed, I was thinking the gas is strange to say nothing about the price, this is weird....jh

[pbrown]

Gary,

We're you running with original tank and sender? You tank could have crud that is plugging the pickup strainer.

Drain the tank and pull the sending unit and take a look.

The vent tube is also a good thought. Disconnect it inside the trunk and blow some air through it with a compressor.

[MacDee]

I took it for a drive with the gas cap removed. Didn't make any difference. Seemed to want to go sour on and off. I noticed that if I goosed it a bit, it would clear up for a couple of minutes.
So...
I changed the plugs to a set I have that are two steps hotter. It seemed to run better, but still seems to run sour on and off. Just not as sour as with the colder plugs.

I reconditioned the gas tank shortly after I got the car. There was a pin-hole leak in the top of the tank, so I did the whole Por-15 clean-and-seal treatment. The pickup looked nice and clean, as I recall.

Maybe the gas is too old. The last fill-up was last fall, but I don't recall if I added stabilizer. I'll need to gas it up on the next test drive anyway.

[MacDee]

So tonight I tried tuning it with the vacuum advance deleted. I must have messed it up bad because it is worse than ever! I drove it to get gas and had to nurse the thing the whole way! It won't idle, and runs sour.
I'm suspecting my timing is way off, but since my timing light acts schizophrenic with my Street Fire triple-spark ignition, I can't really nail it down. I try timing using the "vacuum gauge" method: set the timing to where the vacuum just reaches maximum at idle, then back the timing off until the vacuum drops 2 in Hg. I really have no idea where it is, but I had to restart at the gas station to move up a little more, and it acted like the timing was WAY too far advanced! At the station, I backed the timing off, ...oh, about that much..., boosted the idle speed up a bit more, and made a desperate run for home.

Frankly, I don't feel like I know what I'm doing, and now I'm afraid to touch it because every attempt I've made so far has resulted in either no improvement, or it ends up worse.

Needless to say, she won't be coming to the picnic this weekend. She's not drivable the way she is, and I'm done messin' with it for the week.

I at least need to get a timing light that works with my ignition. Pat has one that apparently works fine, because he used it when he came over to help a few weeks ago. What kind of timing light is that (brand, model, retailer?)? I gotta get one....

[pbrown]

I have a couple of timing lights. The one I brought to your place is this one.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EQU-5568/

They make several versions. Here is a link that shows the list if you want something cheaper.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part-Type/Timing-Lights/Brand/Equus/?Ns=Rank|Asc

I had your base timing set to 15 degrees BTDC. Based on the specs for the head and cam, I think you can run somewhere between 12-15. I had the vacuum advance completely capped off.

If you recall the carb tuning we did, we had it running okay but the idle was at ~18-19:1 AFR and had to idle at 1300RPM to keep from dieing. My hope was to richen the AFR at idle to something closer to 13:1 AND with the idle mixture screws turned out between 1 and 2 turns. We had adjusted the mixture screws out based on the max vacuum reading and ended up past four turns. It clearly needed additional help.

You need to get everything set back the way I had it. Then adjust the mixture screws to best vacuum and determine where the AFR ended up. Did the IFR jet change help or hurt. It's always best to change one thing and a time, test, and documents the results.

[pbrown]

When shopping for any timing light, be sure is states that it is multi-spark compatible.

[MacDee]

My hope was to richen the AFR at idle to something closer to 13:1 AND with the idle mixture screws turned out between 1 and 2 turns. We had adjusted the mixture screws out based on the max vacuum reading and ended up past four turns. It clearly needed additional help.

I actually had it idling, in neutral, pretty well with the mixture screws out one and a half turns. The vacuum reading didn't change noticeably as I opened them further, but wouldn't run turned in any farther than that. I drove it to the gas station that way, but, as I said, I had to nurse it, especially at stop lights. At the station I turned them out another half turn for the run home.

[MacDee]

So...
I researched timing lights and decided on this one:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EQU-3555/

I called around and found one at the O'Reillys in Bothell. Drove down, bought it, and brought it home. I noticed that it looked a lot like mine, so I figured mine was a lesser-model Equus light of some kind. I looked at both when I got the new one home to see if I could see a distinguishing feature so I wouldn't get them mixed up. Couldn't see a difference. Finally I saw it; mine is a model 3555, THE SAME @#&* LIGHT!!

If mine is supposedly compatible with multi-spark ignitions, why is it so schizophrenic, especially at low speeds? It acts like it can't decide which spark to flash on. It will show the mark up there, then all of a sudden down there, etc etc. It's gotten so I don't trust it!

Is it possible there is something wrong with mine, or is that just the way it is? I don't want to break into the new package if it's going act the same as mine. I'd just as soon return it for a refund. Is there a better light I could get without breaking the bank?

Opinions?

[pbrown]

You are welcome to borrow mine if you want to pick it up. Can you not return the new one after it's opened? Try calling the manufacturer to see if they have any ideas.

[redfalken]

Just throwing this out there...what plug wires are you using? Solid core are not recommended for multi-spark.

[redfalken]

From the MSD tech on their forum:

"The problem with most name brand timing lights is that they have a dial back option or a digital read out that is not compatible with our equipment. We recommend a basic, no thrills or frills, inductive pick up timing light. If your setting your timing way out to get it to run correctly, that is a good indication that the signal is not being interpreted correctly by the timing light."

[Jeff W]

I have the $99 equus 3568 and we were having inconsistent results using it on Kennys MSD. So expensive isn't the solution.

[falcon cobra]

Gary if you read your post on page 9 you said it goes down the road sweet and idles around 900. but responce was a little slow, so what happened since then?? that it doesn't run worth a hoot....jh

[MacDee]

Just a quick note.
There was a brass shaving covering the hole in one of the set screws.
I fixed that, and now she runs great! She still has a slight stumble when I toe the gas, but she idles beautifully and cruises smooth and steady!

I'm stoked!

[pbrown]

Just a quick note.
There was a brass shaving covering the hole in one of the set screws.
I fixed that, and now she runs great! She still has a slight stumble when I toe the gas, but she idles beautifully and cruises smooth and steady!

I'm stoked!

Cool. I'm glad you found the problem.I thought I had that cleaned out. Sorry about that.

Anyway, where do you have the timing set? Did you disconnect the vacuum advance? How many turns out are the mixture screws? between one and two full turns would be ideal. What is your idle RPM? Now would be a good time to connect the wideband O2 meter and see where the AFR ended up.

[redfalken]

Sometimes it's a real relief when you find something tangible that makes a big and sudden difference. Congrats! Now you can start putting some miles on it!