Freddie's Transplant

[MacDee]

...where do you have the timing set? Did you disconnect the vacuum advance? How many turns out are the mixture screws? between one and two full turns would be ideal. What is your idle RPM? Now would be a good time to connect the wideband O2 meter and see where the AFR ended up.
Timing is 14 BTDC. Vacuum advance is disconnected, though I would like to try it with vacuum advance. In the past, it always seemed more docile with it connected. Mixture screws are four turns out. Idle rpm is 900 in gear, about 1500 in neutral. (This difference is much smaller with vacuum advance hooked up, by the way.)

[falcon cobra]

Gary, Iam not sure why the idle goes down 600 rpm from N to DR ? I thought you had a stall converter, I dont have one and mine goes from 1000 in N and about 700 to 800 in Dr.. and what do you mean about the vac advance when it's hooked up....jh

[Luva65wagon]

Awesome news Gary. Now should just be tweaking it and driving it. Tweaking never seems to stop. As long as it's not tweaking, stalling instead.

[pbrown]

Gary,

You need a converter with a higher stall rating than the stock one you have. I'd say a 2500RPM stall would be minimum for that cam. You could also switch to a manual. Either way will fix the big idle drop when shifting to drive.

Do not connect your vacuum advance up intil you get everything else dialed in. This is last. You should also be connecting it to a ported or switched vacuum source on the carb. Do not connect to full vacuum. I know there are some crazy Internet articles saying to do that. Don't! You should also plan to add an adjustable vacuum advance can when you finally get that connected. Connecting the vacuum advance should not alter your idle timing if it's hooked up properly.

We still need to get an AFR reading at idle to see if we actually are getting more fuel at idle. I'm leaving for San Diego on Sunday morning. You can borrow my O2 tool but you need to pick it up before I leave.

[MacDee]

From post #216:

A sad story here....
I knew I was going to need a higher stall speed, so I found a place in Auburn that said they could re-build mine to a higher stall speed. I asked for 2600. Alas, apparently the guy I talked to didn't talk to the guy that did the work, and I got back a really nicely rebuilt torque converter... ...with stock stall speed. Of course, I had that done more than a year before we ever put the engine in the car, and because of the trouble I've had getting it to run at all, I only figured this out recently. The stall speed is about 1500. :(
Torque converter is on the list....
Unfortunately, you can't seem to just buy one off the shelf. All the ones you can buy are for V8's which don't have the integral ring gear. What should I do to get a high-stall converter?

As for working on anything else in the short-term, I'm declaring a moratorium. I'll do a few minor fix-ups, and then I'm drivin' her to some shows. The Fathers Day show at Country Village in Bothell will be her "coming-out" party.

[falcon cobra]

They don't put ring gears on converters, they bolt to the flex plate which is bolted to the engine and has the ring gear....jh

[pbrown]

They don't put ring gears on converters, they bolt to the flex plate which is bolted to the engine and has the ring gear....jh

The small sixes have the gear on the converter. The big sixes have the V8 style converter without the gear.

http://images.oreillyauto.com/parts/img/medium/pro/fm101-1.jpg

[pbrown]

Unfortunately, you can't seem to just buy one off the shelf. All the ones you can buy are for V8's which don't have the integral ring gear. What should I do to get a high-stall converter?


I would find a good core unit and take it to a shop that can rebuild it to the requested specs. Then pull the tranny and replace it all in a day.

[pbrown]

One more thing. I looked at the cam specs for your cam again. It states that the 112 degree version does not need a stall converter and that it has good idle and vacuum. Your vacuum stinks. Are you sure your cam is the 277/277-112? Maybe the boxes got mixed up.

[MacDee]

...take it to a shop that can rebuild it to the requested specs.
This is EXACTLY what I did.
The one word missing from the sentence, however, is "reputable". I need to find a REPUTABLE shop that can rebuild my torque converter to requested specs!
Anybody know of one?

[pbrown]

Anybody know of one?

This is who I use. Give them a call and see if they can help. They are in CA so shipping will be required.

http://www.edgeracingconverters.com/

[MacDee]

Just an update....
Freddie is running pretty well. With the "magic" Pat did to the carb, it idles well, and I only need to keep my foot on the accelerator for about five seconds on a cold start before it will run on its own. This is a VAST improvement over the five or so MINUTES it used to take before she would idle!

I have the choke hooked up and managed to get it adjusted just about right. I have also hooked up the vacuum advance, but to the venturi port, NOT to the manifold vacuum. It doesn't seem to have much affect in any phase, but I think she'll get a little better gas mileage with it hooked up.

She still has a slight stumble when I toe the throttle. I'm sure there are still many adjustments I'll need to make!

I'm going to take her to the Kla Ha Ya Days show in Snohomish on July 22:
http://www.klahayadays.com/pdf_forms/2012/Car%20Show%20Info.pdf

After that, I'm going to take her to the Boeing Employee Community Fund show at work on the 25th.

She's almost fun to drive again!

[MacDee]

I drove Freddie to the Kla Ha Ya Days show in Snohomish last weekend, and to the Boeing Employee Community Fund car show at work yesterday. Again, she idles really nicely, rock steady, even during long red lights (or long delays waiting to get parked at the show!). She runs nice "around town", but a freeway speeds, the power delivery is very, disconcertingly even, unsteady. She acts like she's continuously, intermittently, cutting out; "sputtering", if you will. I can't hear it sputtering (too much ambient noise?), but I can sure FEEL it!
Does anyone have any ideas what may be causing this?

She has pretty good power. Once on the trip home from Snohomish I pushed her up to about 3400rpm (about 75 mph). It was a piece of cake, and she even seemed to smooth out a bit.

Also, she still has that "flat spot" when I toe the throttle....

[MacDee]

I re-jetted the carb. Went from 122-51 mains to 122-55's. The "flat spot" is gone! Throttle response is good. Runs smooth and steady at high speed cruise. I'm stoked!

[yay]

[Luva65wagon]

Good to hear Gary. You should be stoked. Now it's time to pit the 6 against an 8 and see if they are, in fact, equals as Clifford said they could be. [thumb]

[MacDee]

I re-installed the Classic Inlines 1.6:1 rocker assembly with the new push rods I got back from rockerarms.com. (See post #110 on this thread.) So now, of course, I can't get the valves adjusted!!

As I'm sure y'all know, the method for adjusting hydraulics is to loosen until there is play with the lifter on the base circle of the cam lobe, then tighten until the play is JUST gone, and then crank it down 1/4-turn more.

I did the cold adjustment, of course, and expected it to be way off since it's supposed to be done with the engine warmed. It was (way off) but it ran well enough I went down and gassed her up.

After that trip, I waited for it to cool enough that I could touch the engine, and did the "hot" adjustment. I also changed the oil.

When I restarted after the hot adjustment, it clattered like hell for a few seconds, as I expected (since I'd changed the oil). It quieted down some, but not completely. I needed to try setting them again, but I'd run out of time... and patience.

I'll be making another attempt to set the valves some time this week, but I want to maximize my chances for success. It has been suggested to me in the past that maybe I should crank the adjuster screws down 1/2-turn (instead of 1/4) after the play is taken up. Anybody have any opinions on this? Any tricks or techniques I should use to maximize the possibility of success?

[redfalken]

Here's a good tech article on valve adjustment:

http://www.classicinlines.com/ValveAdj.asp

I used it on mine and seemed to work well. It does mention 1/4 turn for a daily driver and 1/2 turn for a performance engine.

[MacDee]

Thanks, Kenny!
That is the exact same article I used to learn how to do it. However, the last time I read it (and copy/pasted it) it said "1/4 turn", not "1/4-1/2 turn". I'll be using 1/2-turn on my next try for sure!

[Luva65wagon]

There is a lot of travel in a hydraulic lifter (usually) and you are usually OK with a little more as long as you don't bottom out the plunger. You'll know when you've done that, usually.

I sure used the word usually a lot in this reply. I usually don't do that.

[MacDee]

I re-set the valves tonight. Instead of "1/4-1/2 turn", I did, oh, about 6/10...?
I kid you not, this is the best she has ever run!![yay]

Thank you, Kenny and Roger. Your responses provided the encouragement I needed to "try again",...as usually.

[Luva65wagon]

Great news Gary. Can't wait to go for a ride in it someday.

[redfalken]

Glad it's running better. I guess no matter what they say, sometimes engines want what they want. I wouldn't argue with success!

[Luva65wagon]

Engines "want" things? I didn't know that until now. ;)

[falcon cobra]

Air and fuel come to mind ! and maybe a good mechanic can help.....jh

[Luva65wagon]

We should not confuse "needing" with "wanting." Engines, of course, need fuel, air, compression, and spark to run. Wanting something, like chrome water pumps, KN Air Filters, Nitros, or yellow spark plug wires... well....

:BIRTHDAY:

[falcon cobra]

If you were a motor wouldn't you want a chrome water pump and yellow wires to keep up with the motor Mr. jones has ?:BIRTHDAY:

[redfalken]

OK...now you're razzin' me again. My engine's ALIVE and wants lots of adjustments that are sometimes way different than what others are running. If not it ain't happy!

You say potato... :p

[MacDee]

I hadn't driven, or even started, Freddie since, well, the Snohomish show, so I went out last night just to start her up and warm her... to keep the "juices" flowing.
Well, she wouldn't start. Cranks fine, but no fire.
I think there's no spark. There's a little light on the Street Fire ignition module that I think is supposed to be lit whenever the ignition is on, but it wasn't. The "Gen" light lights up when I turn the ignition on, so I think the switch is okay, but I'm guessing there's an open circuit somewhere between the switch and the ignition module. Seems weird; it was fine the last time I shut her off! How could a circuit go bad just sitting?
Any ideas how I should go about tracing this down?

[redfalken]

I hate when that happens! With no symptoms beforehand it's harder to diagnose. I would first start of by just examining every wire. Make sure something didn't touch a hot surface and melt, or get pinched or cut by a moving part. And check that the terminals are all making a good connection. Sometimes you can just forget a lock washer and the nut can back off.

Next poke around with the multitester and make sure you're getting power where and when you're supposed to. Make sure the MSD unit is getting 12V with the key on and during cranking.

Here's something on testing the MSD module: http://msdhelp.com/Testing_your_MSD.aspx

[BPVan]

I have to agree again with Kenny. I had a similar issue after I just parked it. It turns out my electric choke wire came out of the retainer clip and touched my exhaust manifold causing the circuit to ground out. Of course I found it after all the tests Kenny mentioned.

[MacDee]

After this morning's meeting (11/24/12), I went home with the intention of replacing the coil. I thought before I replaced the coil I'd just pull a plug wire and crank it from under the hood with the ignition switch on to see if there was a spark from the wire to the plug. There was. No only that, but the engine kicked. Hmm. I put the plug wire back on, held the throttle open a bit and cranked again. Nothing. I let off the throttle and cranked again. She fired right up!

My guess is that after she's been sitting for a while, she needs more choke than just the choke; she needs the choke AND the throttle closed to get a rich enough dose to fire. I dunno. Just needed to revise my start-up technique.

We're back in business! [thumb]

[MacDee]

Many of you have commented about the lifter noise in my engine. (I hear it too...) So, I tried adjusting the valves... again... for the umpteenth time.

This time it finally dawned on me; I've got a bad lifter! :doh:

On eleven of the valves, there is a very distinct point where the lash is taken up, at which point I crank in another [3/4-tun] to set the hydraulic lifters. On one of them, it is a very UN-distinct point, and after cranking another [3/4-turn] (which is WAY easier than with the other eleven!), I can push down on the push rod and rotate the rocker off of the tip of the valve! It's as if there is no oil in the lifter and I'm just pressing against the spring within the lifter.

I'm pretty sure it has been this way all along. (It may even be why it broke that push rod a couple of years ago!) This time, I cranked it down until there was just a tiny bit of play... sort of as if it were a solid lifter. I started it up after the adjustment, and it runs okay; pretty much the same as before.

I know I'll need to remove the head to fix this, but I would like to know how critical it is. Can I continue to drive it until I get around to fixing it, or do I need to just park it?
:confused:

[Luva65wagon]

Hydraulic valves shouldn't be run as solid lifters, though they may for a while. At the risk of wiping a cam lobe and going much further into this than just pulling the head, I'd park it and pull the head. Still only a few hours work.

Is this valve in the rear of the block or center? It is very odd that it wouldn't pump up. You are running a good oil pressure gauge, right?

[MacDee]

It's on the #2 cylinder, near the front. I do have an oil pressure gauge. Oil pressure is around 40 psi.
I've never really understood how these lifters get "oiled". The only diagrams I've seen of the engine lubrication system seem to indicate oil just dribbles down the push rods and the lifters somehow fill with this non-pressurized oil.
Is that true?

[MacDee]

Another thought...
I HATE this cam anyway; maybe I should go ahead and screw the lobe up so I can buy a milder cam!

[Luva65wagon]

Because you have to have valve function to start the motor, lifters are pumped up via the oil gallery, which "usually" sees the oil from the pump first to get them functioning first. They fill via a hole in their side and bleed out from the top to push oil up the push-rods to the lifters so that oil gets to all the upper valve-train. So it is really rare to get them not to pump up under 40 PSI of pressure. They have to be really broken.

The cam bearings also get oil first along with the lifters, so the reason I asked about where the offending lifter was is to see maybe perhaps a cam bearing was installed wrong and blocking the oil path. Doubt it now if only one lifter is acting up.

Bummer deal no less.

[Luva65wagon]

Although... now that I think of it, I think the 200 gets its oil to the head via the head bolt passage and the upper rocker assy oils all the top bits. I was in V8 mode.

[pbrown]

Pull the head and change the lifters. Do it now before there is more damage. Wiping a lobe means tearing the motor about to clean out the metal bits that will go everywhere. You don't want that.

[Jeff W]

I guess even with only one new lifter you will want to remember to do the fast RPM break in routine.

[MacDee]

Wiping a lobe means tearing the motor apart to clean out the metal bits that will go everywhere.
Is there a way to tell if the lobe hasn't already been "wiped"? As I said, it's been this way since... well... all along, I guess.

[Luva65wagon]

Pulling a lifter and looking at the lobe is really about it Gary. Wouldn't cause the lifter to not pump up though, I don't suspect.

[MacDee]

So...
Apparently the cam lobe at the offending lifter can be checked by verifying its lift. Carter fabricated a checking "push rod" that centers itself and rides on the lip of the lifter body. It can used for checking and comparing lift.

Would it be possible to get some help with this some weekend in early April?

Roger, you said you have a dial indicator? Will it work with an aluminum head?
Does anyone have a 13/16" box wrench (for turning the engine manually). My wrench set only goes up to 3/4", and there isn't room between the damper and the radiator for a socket wrench. (If not, I'll GET one....)

[Luva65wagon]

It is magnetic, but that won't be a issue. We'll rig-up something.

Set a date and let's see what we can do.

I'm sure, also, I have a 13/16 wrench.

[redfalken]

If I'm available I can lend a hand. I have the Kennedy toolbox I bought from Roger full of machinist's tools, calipers, dial indicators with various stands, extensions, clamps, etc. that my dad sent me a long time ago. And I can bring my 13/16" too. Just in case.

[SmithKid]

Count me in, too (if I'm not fishing).

[MacDee]

How about Saturday, April 6?

[redfalken]

I think that works for me.

[MacDee]

Okay...
I'm tearing into it this Saturday, April 6.

The plan is to remove the valve cover and rocker shaft, substitute a "test" push rod at various lifters, EXCEPT for the bad one, and measure lift with a dial indicator. Establish a "good" lift reading and then do the same test on the bad one (#2 exhaust).
Depending on results, I may need advice on what to do next.

I just ordered a new lifter and a head gasket set... just in case that is all it will need....

I will probably open the garage around 9:00.

There will be snacks, coffee, etc.; pizza run later if necessary.

Are the dial indicator and the 13/16 box wrench still coming?

[redfalken]

I'll have to play it by ear. My landlord scheduled a new refrigerator delivery Saturday. She won't know until 8:00am what their 2 hour window will be. And I'll have to empty the old one before they get here.

So I hope to be there but we'll see how it goes.

[MacDee]

Okay!
Two "maybe's".
If no one shows up, I'll go buy a dial indicator and a wrench, check the cam lobe lift myself as best I can, and report the results.
Unfortunately, I don't really have another window of opportunity coming up any time soon. Gotta do this on Saturday.

[redfalken]

My hope is that the delivery guys will come late in the afternoon so I can head out right away. I'll bring my toolbox but hopefully Roger can make it out with his dial indicator.

[pbrown]

I have a dial indicator and the big wrench. I'll try to make it if I'm not committed elsewhere.

[Luva65wagon]

I have been going through h-e-double-hockey-sticks (my Escape broke down last week with a $1200 repair, jury selection, programmer dealings, Comet gas tank shipping debacle (arrived today - yay!) and now a broken molar with dentist on Monday and pain today). So I have not been as watchful here as I should have. Sorry. I didn't notice this request or allocate time for Freddie this Saturday. I need to (now that it arrived) get the Comet home from Burien as it has overstayed its welcome by then-some.

If you want to come by and borrow what I have you can do that, but I won't be able to attend this weekend.

[SmithKid]

As it turns out, I'm not going to be available to help on Saturday. Sorry!

[MacDee]

Thank you, all, for your replies.
I am going to try to get the wrench and a dial indicator tonight. I'll commence about 9:00 on Saturday. I'll remove spark plugs and rocker assembly and then do the best I can measuring lobe lift on all the lifters. If no one shows by noon, I'll need to knock off and go on to other household activities.

[MacDee]

Oh, I guess I ought to provide my address...?

15606 210th Ave NE
Woodinville

Take Woodinville-Duvall Road eastbound (unless you're coming from Duvall!) to 212th Ave NE, Rt on 212th;
Right off of 212th on to NE 165th;
Left off of 165th on to 210th Ave NE;
15606 is on the left (east) side of the street.
You'll see a Falcon in an open garage....

[redfalken]

Just got the word that my delivery will be sometime between 11-1. :(

I really did want to be there to witness the ah-ha moment! I don't hope your cam is toast but it's always nice to be able to find something definitive when you're troubleshooting.

[MacDee]

Well, today the "suspect" lifter adjusted up just fine!
I figured before I tore into it, I should try to verify the problem by trying to adjust the #2 exhaust valve... again... to see if it behaved the same as it did before. It didn't; it behaved normally this time!
I had started her up just to get the oil pressure up before opening the hood, but didn't warm it completely. I did this experiment, and based on that result, re-adjusted all the valves. They all seemed normal. I then took it for a drive and got it fully warm. I then re-did the valve adjustment... twice.
The first time through I adjusted a half turn beyond lash take-up. I then spun the engine a few revs with the starter and adjusted them all again using three-quarters of a turn after take-up. They all seemed normal... both times.
I dunno. She runs fine, but I still think I hear valve noise out on the road.

[Jeff W]

She runs fine, but I still think I hear valve noise out on the road.

Do you want Click and Clack's standard answer? Turn up the radio!:3g:

[MacDee]

Do you want Click and Clack's standard answer? Turn up the radio!:3g:
Why didn't I think of that...!

[MacDee]

FYI-
I did get a 13/16 wrench and a dial indicator.
The big wrench came in handy setting the motor at TDC.
I never used the dial indicator.

[Luva65wagon]

Gary, That is why I spend so much on stereo equipment!

Sorry I couldn't make it. Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse for me and my schedule it did. And then some. So I hope you can crank up the radio and drive it to a show or two this year.

[MacDee]

I did something Pat told me specifically NOT to do....
Though Freddie has been running pretty well, one thing that has caused me anxiety is that the temp will rise uncomfortably while sitting at idle, as in when waiting at a long stop light.
I was randomly perusing the Ford Six Performance forum and came across this article, one I had read before, I think, a long time ago:

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=63354

The author makes a case for utilizing vacuum advance, manifold vacuum, and claims one of the benefits is cooler running at idle.
I HAD to try it... again.

I re-set my initial timing back to 10 BTDC (it was at about 14), and then... hooked a vacuum line to the MANIFOLD vacuum port.

I'm tellin' you... [Pat...] she runs MUCH better with vacuum advance hooked up! And she doesn't heat up nearly so bad at stop lights!

I had driven her to work a couple of weeks ago, without vacuum advance, and on the way home the temp gauge reached 240 degrees at one point, and I was sweating bullets! Today I took her to the All Ford show at XXX, and she never went above 200 degrees, even on the way home when it was pretty warm outside.

It just seems like the right thing to do.

[ew1usnr]

Hello, MacDee.

"I had driven her to work a couple of weeks ago, without vacuum advance .."

You lost me. Why would you not have a vacuum advance? I thought that all distributers were hooked to a vacuum advance.

Thanks, Dennis.

[MacDee]

Gosh, what can I say?
Ignition timing control over the whole operating spectrum of an engine is, well, a Black Art. Back in the days before electronic engine control systems, it was handled, usually, with a combination of a mechanical method, flyweights working against springs to advance timing as engine speed increases, and with vacuum, working on a diaphragm to advance/retard timing depending on engine load.
With stock production engines, the manufacturers had whole engineering departments working out how best to optimize performance/economy/driveability, and avoid destructive detonation, using mechanical and vacuum inputs into the distributor. With a modified engine, some of the solutions the manufacturer came up with may no longer be valid. Thus, it becomes the hot-rodder's task to "re-engineer" how the distributor responds to engine speed and vacuum inputs. This is why you hear hot rodders talking about "re-curving" distributors, which is changing the way the distributor revises timing based on engine speed.
Vacuum, of course, is another thing to consider. It throws in another variable which can be used, as the manufacturers do, to improve economy and driveability, but with a high-compression modified engine, if not done properly, it can also introduce a factor that can cause damage due to detonation (pinging).
Since vacuum advance gernerally doesn't come into play at wide-open throttle, racing engines typically forgo the use of vacuum advance altogether. In the case of racing engines, you find the maximum total advance your engine can tolerate, then fiddle with the mechanical advance mechanism in the distributor and the initial timing to achieve the optimum performance throughout the rev range without exceeding the maximum Total Advance.
If you peruse this string, you'll see that I've undertaken doing a highly modified 200-inch six-cylinder engine. In hindsight, I bit off way more than I could chew. I've had a lot of trouble getting my engine to run well, and it wasn't until Pat Brown got involved, I'll call him this forum's Primary Guru, that I even got this thing to be driveable at all! He did a modification to my carburetor that turned out to be "The Breakthrough". Among other things, Pat had recommended that, as with a racing engine, I should forgo using the vacuum advance. However, my engine, though highly modified, has a pretty moderate compression ratio. Because of that, I felt it was worth the risk to try to reintroduce vacuum advance to improve some issues I was having that corresponded to those mentioned in the article I referenced.
The result seems to be very favorable. My "overheating-at-idle" problem is greatly diminished, and yet, as far as I can tell, I'm still not having any issue with detonation.

Whew! I hope I didn't bore you too badly.
Thank you for asking!
Are you sorry you did?
(To paraphrase a famous Dr Seuss line, is your brain numb now?)

[ew1usnr]

Hello, Gary.

"Whew! I hope I didn't bore you too badly."

No! That was all very interesting. I have studied carburetors and cam shafts but always took the distributer for granted. I pulled out an engine description for my 260 and verified that its distributer has "centrifugal vacuum advance".

I went back to the beginning of this thread on page 21 and have read so far up to page 15. Wow! You have gone though some struggles. That is an amazing setup, though, with the aluminum head, intake manifold, and custom headers. Jazzing up a V-8 is routine, but I've never read in detail about building a high-performance inline six. That is really cool.

I'll resume where I left off on page 15. It is like reading a novel and I want to see how it ends!

Later, Dennis.

[MacDee]

I now have first-hand experience with a "wiped cam".
I was driving to a car show in late June, when, all of a sudden, the engine started making awful metal-to-metal noises with a corresponding degradation in engine performance. It didn't quit, just ran really bad, and I was able to nurse it off to a parking lot where I called AAA. I had it towed home, and after agonizing about what to do next, decided to remove the head to "see the damage". When I removed the head, lo and behold, THERE WAS NO DAMAGE. At least none I could see in the cylinders or the head.
Subsequently, I had her towed to Long's Car Care Center in Woodinville, where I have commissioned Randy Long to do "whatever necessary" to get her back on the road.
Upon disassembly, sure enough, the cam was "wiped". It appeared to be the #5 cylinder, where both lifters were severely damaged; one of them had the whole bottom wiped away! There is some minor scoring in the cylinders and on the crank journals from "metal in the oil", but I haven't heard yet if it is bad enough to need machine work. I bought a new cam, a much more conservative one, and took it in with the car.
Needless to say, it doesn't look like Freddie will be making the trip to the Mini-Regional.

[BadBird]

Wow Gary! That is truly bad news. Keep us informed on how the repairs go, and do you know what causes this kind of damage so it doesn't happen to me? Larry

[Nathan289]

1. Lack of zinc in oil... but I suspect there's more involved
2. Over adjusted rocker arms... added to the bad oil.
3. Plugged oil gallery that supplies oil to the lifters in cylinder 5.

If it was just the oil the all the lifters would show wear.

So my guess is problem 2 or 3..

Though I'm sure todays oils don't help.

[ew1usnr]

1. Lack of zinc in oil... but I suspect there's more involved. Though I'm sure todays oils don't help.

I have used 5W-30 oil with Cam-Shield ZDDP additive in my re-built stock 260. Then I had an oil guy tell me that the additive changes the chemistry of the oil and I was better off using 15W-40 diesel oil. The diesel oil is supposed to have enough zinc.

What oil do you guys use?

See: "Another alternative is to use heavy-truck diesel-oil, which is formulated for 18-wheelers and at present still has a full complement of traditional anti-wear additives that have been significantly reduced in today's street-legal passenger car oils. (Though even diesel oils will start reducing zinc content in 2007 as big rigs gear up to receive catalytic converters.) Comp Cams swears by Shell Rotella T diesel oil for use in high-performance street cars."

Read more: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/#ixzz3A8scveys

[Nathan289]

Diesel oils no longer have zinc in them either. New semis have catalytic converters and exhaust filters. That's why the fuel is now ultra low sulfur and the oil has been changed.

I run Valvoline vr1 racing oil. Usually in a 20-50 for summer 10-30 for winter.

Valvoline has vr 1
Kendall has gt 1
Lucas has a classic car formula
Amsoil has a classic car formula
Joe Gibbs racing """""""""
Schaffer's. """""""""""""


There are probably other oils that have zinc additives.

There's also the replacement zinc additives you can buy.. I know the hyper lube zinc additive doesn't contain zinc..
Comp cams, edelbrock, Lucas, and others sell bottles of zinc replacement.
Stp in the blue bottle iirc contains zddp which is a zinc replacement. Problem is I couldn't get anyone at stp to tell me how much zinc in parts per million the bottle contained nor how much ppm it would be mixed with 5 quarts of oil.

For good oil info check out bob the oil guy...

[MacDee]

1. Lack of zinc in oil... but I suspect there's more involved
2. Over adjusted rocker arms... added to the bad oil.
3. Plugged oil gallery that supplies oil to the lifters in cylinder 5.
#1) My engine builder used SAE 30 with ZDDP additive. I've been using Kendall GT1 Platinum 20-50 specifically because it has ZDDP.
#2) Have always seemed to have an issue with valve adjustment. No matter what I did, or how many times I did it over, I ended up with noisy lifters.... I wonder if I just had some bad lifters?
#3) My engine builder was particularly good at ensuring all galleries are clean. But... who knows.

Two possibilities Randy and I came up with is 1) inadequate break-in, and 2) too much valve spring pressure. I had ordered the "302" springs with dampers from Classic Inlines, but they sent the hell-for-bent compound springs, the strongest springs they sell... so we used 'em.

[Nathan289]

Im thinking it was your springs..

And damage to the rocker assembly?
Any wear on other lifters?
How are the valve stems or the valve seats? High spring pressure should have hammered the valves.

[Luva65wagon]

One broke rocker early on and now this? I say valve springs and probably break-in issues since it was not a sure-fire start-up and break-in. Unless you're going to race this you don't have to worry about ultra heavy springs. Time to regroup and think about this with intended use and learning from what's happened so far.

[ew1usnr]

I run Valvoline vr1 racing oil. Usually in a 20-50 for summer 10-30 for winter.

Hello, Nathan.

I did some research and found that ZDDP additive can actually lower the lubrication of some oils. You can therefore get more reliable and predictable results by using an oil that is already formulated with ZDDP. Here are my notes:

Zinc Question:
10W-30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil (silver bottle) = 103,505 psi “wear protection capability”, at 230 degrees F.
Over 90,000 psi = OUTSTANDING protection. Zinc = 1472 ppm, Phos = 1544 ppm, ZDDP = 1500 ppm.
See: http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35836

O’Reilly has Valvoline VR1 for $6.19/qt. Part Number: RACE10-30. It is $5.99/qt at Advance Auto.
See: http://www.valvoline.com/products/brands/racing/racing-motor-oil/6
VR1 Racing Oil (VR1) The #1 selling racing motor oil. High zinc provides race-level protection for any vehicle. High zinc/phosphorus provides extreme wear protection, including flat tappet applications. Additional friction modifiers to help deliver maximum horsepower. Compatible with gasoline or alcohol fuels. Formulated for race engines, but compatible with passenger vehicles too. Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains 75% higher zinc than SM motor oil with a balanced additive package designed to work in both racing and street-legal applications. This product will protect older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. VR1 is available in both multi and mono viscosity grades: 10W-30, straight 30, and 20W-50. VR1 is designed for street use and normal service intervals of 3000 miles.

4087

That all sounds reasonable.

[MacDee]

One broke rocker early on and now this? I say valve springs and probably break-in issues since it was not a sure-fire start-up and break-in. Unless you're going to race this you don't have to worry about ultra heavy springs. Time to regroup and think about this with intended use and learning from what's happened so far.
Yeah. It was actually a broken push rod, but I'd bet money that whatever might be wrong with the valve train contributed to it!

I have a theory... It's WAY off-the-wall... and makes assumptions I cannot justify... but it would explain a LOT:

Could it be possible the valve springs were "overpowering" the lifters?
Let's assume (the first ridiculous assumption)... the springs were causing significant leak-down during the period the lifter is on the lobe; then assume (the second ridiculous assumption)... the lifter didn't have enough time to refill during the period it is on the base circle. IF SO... I would get NOISY LIFTERS no matter how I tried to adjust them, or how many times I re-adjusted them (exactly what I have experienced), and the lifters would be getting HAMMERED on every revolution.

Considering its intended use... the new build will be using a much more conservative cam, and softer valve springs.

[Nathan289]

May I suggest a comp cam h256?
Use new stock springs with shims if needed.

10w-30 vr1 racing oil is good.
Lucas has break in oil that is good and not too expensive.

[MacDee]

The trashed cam was a Clay Smith 274-112. The new cam is a 264-110.
I have turned the build over to a True Professional. I seem to have more money than sense, so the only sensible thing to do is to pay a True Professional to do the sensible thing, right? Springs have not been selected yet, but I'm sure Randy [and I?] will do the sensible thing!

[Luva65wagon]

I'm not sure about all those assumptions, but oil pump capacity has more to do with it than the lifters or valve springs. Oil pump pressure should be a constant. I'm not sure (off the top of my head) what they offered for high-volume (not pressure) oil pumps on the L6, but that would be something to look at if you are not certain what was installed.

I know, just from history, that getting oil all the way up to the rockers was an issue requiring external tactics to get it up there, but whether that is an issue with lifters as well, I don't know. Usually by now (50 years post engine release) anything that can be known about these motors has been published - as well as any and all modifications you can and should do to make them survive any upgrades you want to throw at them.

You probably did well with going this route. I think we're all in agreement that we'd like to see more of your car out-n-about.

[Nathan289]

The ford six performance handbook covers the oiling issue..

Tricks like grinding the shank down on the headbolt that goes in the oiling passage.

If you don't have the book already I'd be looking into buying it. Classic inline sells it.

Wow a 274 cam that's a lot of cam. You plan on racing?
I'm not sure I'd run the 264 it's still a lot of cam. But you do have the C.I. head so maybe that makes it different.