62 starting problem and need help please!

[jedijim]

Hi All,

I'm brand new to the forum (and car novice) and in a way of introducing myself, I need help!

I have a 62 4-door Falcon (of course) and just lately I can't get it started. It was starting rather rough of late and now it won't turn over at all. When the key is turned there is a buzzing but the starter does not sound like it's engaged. I checked the battery and it's fine, the dome light does dim when the key is turned however. The buzzing is coming from a small box (Select brand) that is connected to the battery. I have checked all the connections to it and they seem fine. What is this small box and could that be the problem? If so where do I get one and what do I ask for?

I know these must sound like silly questions to you pros but any help would be greatly appreciated as I want my bird to fly again soon this summer.

Thanks so much!!

Jim in Ballard

[pbrown]

Welcome to the site. I think you should consider a new user name. SPAMMERS will find that address and beall over you. Never use your email address on a web page.

The small box is the starter solenoid. It is mounted to the front of the right side shock tower. I would start with the basics. Clean your battery terminals. Check the cables. Check the ground strap from engine to chassis. The solenoid is cheap to replace if you want to try that.

[Luva65wagon]

Jim,

No pros here man, just a bunch of normal Joes.

That box is the starter solenoid which is sort of a big relay to carry all the electrical current your starter needs from the battery to the starter in as direct a path as you can get. So instead of the ignition switch in your dash being the "path" for all that current to flow, the dash ignition switch just tells that solenoid by the battery to "connect" and that's what sends the juice down to the starter.

OK, so this thing buzzes you say? That is typical of one of these failing. There is a ring contact inside of it that gets pulled down by an electromagnetic. When this ring is pulled down it makes contact with those two big terminals and that is what makes the connection from one side to the other, This buzz you here is typical of this electromagnetic circuit working... sort of. Usually, if it's the starter, this will just CLICK loudly and that's it.

A chatter, or buzz as you call it is also heard when the solenoid isn't properly grounded to the fender panel. So be sure that those two bolts bolting it down are clean and secure. Assuming as you say the battery and the terminals are good and very clean (have you actually looked) then this solenoid not being properly grounded to the fender is more common than the solenoid actually failing.

The worst case would be the starter failing. It also has a magnetic circuit in it with a contact. This is to make sure the drive gear is actually engaged into the flywheel ring gear before the starter begins to spin. If this contact is burned up, or the brushes are shot, then the starter can't spin.

So that's the start routine in a nutshell. Start at the battery (voltage/cleanliness), then check the solenoid connections and that it is secure to the inner fender. The solenoid is cheaper than a starter (and easier to install), so replace it before you crawl underneath and pull out the starter.

Hope this helps and was understandable!

[jedijim]

Thanks guys,

The solenoid appears to bolted firmly and the battery terminals are really clean. If I were to purchase a replacement, what exactly do I ask for and where is a good local place to get one? Sorry again for the basic questions...just trying to learn.

Thanks!!!

Jim in Ballard

[pbrown]

You can get one at Schucks. That solenoid has been used in all ford cars and trucks to the 80s. Just tell then you have a 62 Falcon and see what they do. If that isn't listed in their book, tell them to findone for a 60s Mustang.

[pbrown]

Where is Ballard are you? I'm on 74th St near 28th Ave.

[jedijim]

I live on Jones and 77th NW. Actually very close to Kenny as well. Who, by the by, ever so nicely has agreed to come over and give a listen...

[Luva65wagon]

All the important guys live in Ballard. Yah sure, you betcha. I'm sure between these two you should be up and going in no time...

[pbrown]

I'm sure between these two you should be up and going in no time...

That or the car will burn to the ground in a terrific electrical fire.:WHATTHE:

[jedijim]

Hi All,

Thanks for your suggestions. Just as a quick update, Kenny did come over and helped me replace the solenoid and that didn't work (it generated the same whirring grinding sound as before) so check that off. Next he removed the starter. I took it to Schuck's and the guy did a bench test and it did start running but he said the voltage was low. So I bought a new one to be replaced by me (watch out) and we'll see if that does the trick. I'm going out of town for a few days but when I return I'll give you all an update and hopefully my bird will fire right up. If not, well, you know I'll be calling... ha!

Thanks again for all your kind assistance!

Jim

[Luva65wagon]

Jim,

Whirring grinding almost sounds like a bad bendix in the starter, which would mean the starter is turning, but when the bendix engages it releases prematurely. Or doesn't engage and hold. I doubt Shucks would check that component, but since you have a new one within the new starter, you should be golden. Let us know when you get back how that works out.

[redfalken]

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what it was. We put a direct 12-volts to the starter and you could feel it trying to engage but it wouldn't go. I was almost going to take the cover off to see if I could work it loose but figured Jim would be better off getting a new one with a lifetime warranty. I seem to put a new one in every 3-4 years of daily use.

I'm glad we changed that solenoid. The light grey colored one that was in there didn't look stock anyway!

Next project is the dual master cylinder and maybe a Pertronix electronic ignition unit??

[68FalconSC]

Way to go ! Helping this fella get his Bird up and flying earns good karma for you, plus it was just a real nice thing to do.

[jedijim]

Hi All,

I thought I'd give you an update. I did install the new starter and ugh, still the same no go and the grinding noise persist. I then noticed that with the headlights on, they would go almost entirely out when I turned the key. Even though I had checked and cleaned the battery terminals and checked the charge with a meter I borrowed my buddies charger and let it run over night. Next morning, it started right up. Ya! I'm fine with the new stuff I put on 'cause I now know it's new and it wasn't that expensive.

So my question is, I'm guessing the generator isn't charging properly when running and it slowly runs the battery down. If that's the case, is the generator an easy part to find (say, Schucks's, NAPA) or would it be rebuilt or should I put an alternator on instead. I'm trying to keep the car as stock as possible so I would prefer a generator but I will change it if cost prohibitive. Also, as this is a guess, is there a way to see if it's really not working and is it easy to remove? It looks fairly straight forward and the one currently on the car looks quite old.

Finally, I would appreciate your sage thoughts on this and what you would suggest I do. I'm happy that I've at least got it to go I just want to find a good permanent solution.

THANKS EVERYONE!

Jim

[Luva65wagon]

Yeah, I wish we had a sound recorder to hear the sounds you hear. I somehow figured you might have tried giving it a jump... negating the battery as the cause. Should'a asked I guess.

Anyway, with the car running, use that volt meter you had and check the voltage at the battery with both the headlights on and off. Lights on the voltage should be above 13 volts, but possibly as high as 14.5 or so. This is a generator, so be sure the engine is revving kind of high.

If the voltage isn't what it should be with the lights on, then pull the generator and have it checked at Schucks or Napa, or just drive to a shop (I go to Sears) and they'll usually check your entire system -- from generator to battery for free... in hopes to sell you the part you need. It could be a battery or the voltage regulator failing as well.

Alternators can generate more current and voltage at lower speeds. That's one of their main advantages. They are a pretty easy swap, but would require brackets and slight wiring changes to the "new style" voltage regulator you'd also have to install.

[jedijim]

Thanks everyone,

So... finally I think I have an answer. As I now could get the car started I took it up to Acme on Aurora to have them check out the generator among other stuff. They determined that the generator was fine, but as Roger suggested, the voltage regulator was shot. So that is being replaced as we "speak" and then it should be good to go and just in time for the W. Seattle show. Whew...

So now on to the master cylinder... seriously, if the next Rainier Falcon clinic/barbeque wants to be at my house I'll gladly supply all the fixin's. With all the horror stories about not replacing it, I won't be truly comfortable driving it until I get this taken care of.

Thank you everyone for your kind advice!!

Jim

[redfalken]

Roger was right AGAIN! :WHATTHE:

I do hates the electrical problems but am glad you got it figured out. Now to get the dual master cylinder installed. Jon (68falconsc) has kindly offered to come help and take pictures/notes. Gather the parts and let us know when you're ready. There's not much time before the regionals so maybe we can get it done before then but afterwards for sure.

[68FalconSC]

Just say the word on a date and I'll be there {as long as it's a sat or sun} and.....DID THAT GUY SAY BBQ ??????? DEFINATELY up for THAT !!!!!!!!! LOL.

[jedijim]

I should probably add this to the master cylinder thread but I'll ask here as this is where I initially started...

I have the master cylinder ('67 Mustang) from Schucks and I went to NAPA to get the rest of the parts from that Comet article linked from the other discussion. The guy at NAPA I asked was confused from the list and truth be told I sort of was too. Could someone outline exactly what parts I need for my 62? I know there are only like 6 things but I just want to be sure.

Also they had a cylinder at NAPA that looked better than the all black model at Schuck's. It had the copper lids that looked more like the original Falcon top but it was $69. Are there only cosmetic differences between the two as the Schuck's model was $40?

Thanks for your help, and once I'm sure what I need I'll get these this week.

Jim

[redfalken]

Basically you're taking one line that is coming out of your now single cylinder and splitting it in two. The rear brakes (fed by the front bowl on the dual) is split by a junction block on the rear differential. So you will need to get one junction to run a new short line from the rear bowl (for the front brakes) and split it to the left and right front brakes. If you want to still use your hydraulic brake light switch you'll have to find the special junction that has the female pipe thread on top for this switch. I got mine at a really good parts store in Santa Rosa, CA but I think you may have to go to Fittings, Inc. to get one around here. I doubt any parts stores will have them.

You may need an adapter for the rear port as it is larger if I remember. I'm not sure why they did that but there's a fitting available here that would make a neater install:

http://www.ultrastang.com/Page.asp?PageID=4

I'm terrible with sizes so I'm not sure which one you'll need. Anyone know or sure?? I think it's the 1/2"-20. The other port is the size for the fitting that will come on the 3/16" brake line you'll need to get anyway.

They should have the short brake lines with the fittings though. I would put the switch down by the brake pedal. It's a Standard Brand Part Number: SLS66 for a 70's Ford pickup. As far as the difference in price and quality goes, hard to tell. I would say the one you have is fine. If they both are remanufactured and have the same warranty then only time will tell. Are they different brands?

Jeff has done one most recently and here in Seattle so maybe he can tell you about local parts sources. It's kinda confusing I know. We should put together a kit as a club and sell it on our website to make money. Probably too much liability though...

[pbrown]

I have a big bag of brake fittings. You can go through it and see if you can use any. I'm in Ballard.

[redfalken]

I've got a bunch of stuff too. I may even have that special tee connection if you want to keep your hydraulic brake light switch. And extra brake line too. Between me and Pat I'm sure we can make it work.


It's not really that confusing and once you see it done the light bulb will come on and you'll say "Now I get it!"

[Luva65wagon]

Roger was right AGAIN! :WHATTHE:


If you have a big enough shotgun, you're bound to hit something.

:D

[Luva65wagon]

I've got a few extra pieces leftover from when I did C&A's car, but where they are in my current mess is the question.

Be sure to post when you all plan to do this and I'll try to stop by and supervise.

:p :D

[jedijim]

Hi All,


Below is the parts list from the Comet article linked on the master cylindar web site. Does this look right? The NAPA store I went to had problems finding the right fittings based on this list. Patrick I live in Ballard too, maybe I could stop by for a few moments next weekend and look at the fitting you have, is that possible? Finally, after talking with Kenny hopefully we can do this project in late August, maybe 8/23...


Thanks!!!!!


Parts Required: (prices are based upon a visit to my local NAPA store 7-31-06)

•

1967 Mustang Duel Bowl Manual Master Cylinder for front and rear drum brakes

(remanufactured). Note: This conversion will not work with a stock power brake
booster. $19.95
Core Charge $9.25
•


Brass Brake Line Tee Fitting (1960-66) $2.99

•


Brass Brake Line Tee Fitting w/1/8” female pipe thread (1960-64 only) $5.69

•


8” - 3/16” Brake lines with fittings on each end (1960-66) $1.99

•


8” - 3/16” Brake lines with fittings on each end (1960-64 only) $1.99

•


1 Quart of Type 3 Brake Fluid $3.87

•


Master cylinder brake bleeding kit. $1.00

Optional Parts:


(might as well replace them well it is apart)

•


Brake Light Switch $10.99

[redfalken]

You forgot one thing:

Being able to stop if one line breaks: :WHATTHE: Priceless!

[pbrown]

Patrick I live in Ballard too, maybe I could stop by for a few moments next weekend and look at the fitting you have, is that possible?
I'll be out of town for the next two weekends. I would be available on weekday evenings this week and the start of next.

[jedijim]

Thanks Patrick!

I have a commitment at 6P every evening for the next two weeks, but is it possible to come by between 5 and 6 any day before you leave? I'm not sure what time you get home from work but if this won't work that's fine too, we can just try to get together when you return.

Thanks so much for your assitance!

Jim

[Nathan289]

I would go back to Schuck's taking your MC with you and ask them for a short piece of metal brake line 3/16 with standard flares and standard fittings..
With those two items ask them if you can go through their Dorman brass fitting bins looking for the fitting you need..

You will need on inverted flared brass tee 3/16x3/16x3/16
You will also need as many as 3 adapters depending on the MC's threaded ports.. I think that Cardone drills and taps them if the threads are damaged as i've seen 3 identicle parts have different sizes..

Hence the reason you brought your master..

If you want to get really tricky and reduce an adapter ask them for a conversion brakeline they shoud have them.. it will have a 3/16 on one end and 1/2 or 9/16 fitting on the other end... depeds on the piece you need.

Nathan

[jedijim]

So I'm gearing up to do this master cylinder job and I'm wondering if there is any time I could come over and look through your box of brake fittings? I can meet whenever it's convenient for you. Thank you so much for your kind offer!

Jim

[pbrown]

I'll be around all weekend. If you come by on Sunday you may be put to work pulling Ethernet cable under the house.