Falcon Wagon Electrical Start Issue

[icebox500]

Long time since I've been on the list. Hope everyone is doing well.

Ladybird, alas, is not.

Here's the skinny: I drove her to work one day a while back and when I went out to leave, she refused to start. I turned the key to the on position and had all my lights etc... work fine. Once I turned it to start though, everything would die and only come back to life after letting her sit a little while.

First thing I did was replace the solenoid which didn't change anything. Then I switched out the major cables for new ones thinking that they needed it anyway and these were affordable "shotgun approach" fixes. Of course, they didn't help either.

Finally getting into the real meat of it I pulled the starter and took both it and the battery down to Napa for a bench test figuring that I needed a new starter. The theory was that the starter was grounding out inside. (Un)fortunately the starter and battery both tested out just fine.

After reinstalling I ran a couple more tests.

1) If the starter is not connected and I turn the key, I have good voltage on the battery side of the solenoid. Turn the key and its still there.

2) Connect the voltage tester to the other side of the solenoid (starter side) turn the key and I get 12 volts and no problems. (the starter is still disconnected).

3) Connect the starter to the solenoid and put the voltage tester on and turn the key - all the lights go out, starter doesn't turn and the voltage reads 0, then slowly climbs its way back up to 12 volts.

I still am suspicious of the starter but don't feel like dropping $65 on a new one only to find that its not the problem and that once my greasy mits are all over it its mine to keep.

If someone could throw me some hot ideas or tell me where my testing and logic are flawed, I'd be grateful!

Thanks,

Coupe

[redfalken]

Ughhhh....electrical problems are such a PITA! When you say things come back to life after it sits for awhile do you mean with the key still in the start position or do you mean after you've removed the key? I mean is the battery totally drained after your attempt to start and then you have to take out the key, go have a beer and wait for the battery to build up voltage again?

You might also consider the ignition switch. Try bypassing the solenoid by jumping from the hot wire to the terminal marked "S". I have a special push button remote starter for this but if you're careful a screwdriver will do. Just don't touch a ground and make sure you're holding the plastic handle. I think you can get a new ignition switch at most of the major parts stores (C3AZ-11572-A) for about $15.

Bad coils might also cause some funky drain situations. Do you have points or a Pertronix or MSD ignition? Keep feeding us info and hopefully someone will have an idea...

And if you do get a new starter make sure to pay the extra for one with a lifetime guarantee. I went through a couple before I figured that one out.

[icebox500]

Right, let me clarify.

After turning the key to start and seeing the car die, I turn it off and wait a few minutes, then turn the key back to On and all the lights and fan etc... work until you try to start it again.

I tried all the previous methods with the coil disconnected as well (great minds think alike).

I have a standard ignition setup, nothing hot or fancy or electronic.

I do not believe it is the ignition switch since the failure only occurs if the starter is connected. But I'm open to being told why I might be wrong! ;-)

Thanks Kenny.

Coupe

[redfalken]

Do you have access to a known good battery? Maybe it has some sort of intermittent short when there's a load on it? It might still bench test OK. If you can, totally disconnect the old battery (+ and -) and try a jump start to another car with a good battery.

Also, if you get it running again make sure you're getting at least 13.5 and up to 15.5 volt from the battery posts to know that the charging system is in good shape.

The only reason I would try jumping the solenoid to see if it starts is because it's easy to do and I've always found it sometimes doesn't take much in a 12-volt system make lots of weird symptoms occur.

[Jeff W]

My money is on the battery having some sort of internal failure.... That said, I would think it should have shown up if the guy/gal at NAPA did a load test rather than just a meter test. They should know to do that... right?

If the batery is good and fully charged, a short to ground in the starter would most likely get you some smoke. A good battery has so much amperage potential you could use it to weld a handle back on a cooking pot.

I would swap with the one in your van. Worse case is that the starter WAS bad and you just tosted your second battery. You can always take Metro to work.

[Nathan289]

OFF Topic but I have to ask.

Coupe is your last name Cooper or is that your first name?

I ask because my last name is Cooper.


Nathan

[Luva65wagon]

Coupe,

It could be the starter. Starters have windings that can cause a starter to work or not work depending on where they stop. Also, it's possible for it to work with no load, but not when it has to actually spin something.

For what it's worth the starter can operate while installed with nothing more than the starter, battery, solenoid and cables. You can disconnect all the other wires going to the other parts of the car at the solenoid to rule them out -- and as Kenny said use a remote start (batt to "S" terminal) or a skillfully placed screwdriver you don't mind putting a nice weld mark on to bypass the ignition switch.

One thing I don't hear mentioned is any clicking. When you engage the start circuit where is clicking heard and where is it not? There are essentially two places it could click -- the solenoid and the starter.

The way a Ford start system works is the starter solenoid is activated when 12 volts gets applied to the "S" terminal. This pulls the magnetic plunger against a steel washer that connects the two large terminals within the solenoid together and in the older systems, like ours, also applies 12 volts to the "I" terminal to bypass the ballast resistor wire and give the coil 12 volts instead of the 9 volts it sees from the ignition circuit in the key-on run position. Anyway, with the two large terminals connected to the battery the starter terminal now has full current. But wait there is still yet another magnetic circuit down there that has to a) pull the bendix into to the ring gear and b) to activate the switch in the starter to activate the main windings, which happens AFTER the bendix is engaged. The way the current is applied through the brushes to the commutator is such as to set up yet another magnetic circuit that determines what direction the starter will rotate -- or if it will rotate at all. So, you should be hearing all kinds of clicking of things if things are doing what they are supposed to be doing.

Though it is true you could hear clicking and still not have the starter spin, you will definitely not have a spinning starter without clicking. So, have someone activating the key or shorting the solenoid, while you take a wooden dowel (great stethoscope) and hold it against the solenoid, then the starter and listen as to whether and if things are getting "activated" as they should. If they are, then I would vote for it to be either a very week battery or a bad starter.

On a side note... If you leave the main electrical items connected and turn on the headlights and try to start it, a bad starter is more apt to cause a drain that dims the headlights than a bad battery is. Plus, you can get a jump and eliminate a battery pretty easily as well.

Good luck!