Relocation Of Uper A-Arms

[Jerry Alfaro]

Does anyone have a template for relocating the upper A-arms for a 65 Ranchero or sedan. I'm planning to rebuild the front suspension on my Ranchero and was hoping that someone had a template for doing the relocating of the upper A-Arms. TIA

jerry-

[pbrown]

I don't have the template but you could easily make one.

The template would have the holes go down 1" and back 1/8". This essentially drops the upper arm straight down when you consider it's mounted at an angle.

You can drop it up to 1 3/4" if you use aftermarket control arms or a wedge kit. 1" is as far as you can safely go without binding the ball joint on a stock control arm.

[Jerry Alfaro]

I don't have the template but you could easily make one.

The template would have the holes go down 1" and back 1/8". This essentially drops the upper arm straight down when you consider it's mounted at an angle.

You can drop it up to 1 3/4" if you use aftermarket control arms or a wedge kit. 1" is as far as you can safely go without binding the ball joint on a stock control arm.

Thanks Pat,
This is the information I needed.

jerry-

[pbrown]

Here is what the template looks like.

http://members.cox.net/mbstang/template.jpg

[Jerry Alfaro]

Here is what the template looks like.

http://members.cox.net/mbstang/template.jpg

This is great. The Ranchero is my son's vehicle that I bought for him when he turned 16. This has been work in progress and he is no 24. This information is going to help when we do the brakes. Hope to get started after the first of the year.

Thanks Again,
jerry-

[DEMACAULAY]

OK, second post in a few minutes, sorry:rolleyes: I am curiouys as to why you would lower the upper control arm?
Doug

[pbrown]

OK, second post in a few minutes, sorry:rolleyes: I am curiouys as to why you would lower the upper control arm?
Doug

This one is a little hard to explain unless you have a good understanding of geometry.

Stock:

The stock location of the upper and lower arms are parallel. When the suspension moved up and down the tire stays square to the road. This is a good thing right? Not really. In a corner, the car rolls or leans to the outside of the turn. This compresses the suspension components on the outside of the turn. It also moved the upper control arm mount point out further than the lower due to chassis roll. This effectively tilts the top of the tire out (positive camber). The end result of the tire being at an angle to the road is a reduced contact patch and poor traction (understeer). The front outside tire is the most important tire in a corner when at speed.

Dropped Upper Arm (Shelby Drop):

Now the upper and lower arms are no longer parallel. When at ride height, the tires are square to the road (neutral camber). If you were to push the front of the car down to compress the suspension 4-5" you would see that the top of the tire would go in (negative camber). This is fine in a straight line where traction isn't as critical. The real benefit is seen when the car is in a high G turn. The outside front suspension components compress and the G-forces roll the car to the outside of the turn. The net result is a tire with a flat contact patch to the pavement for superior cornering.


Make sense?

[DEMACAULAY]

Thanks for the info, It does make perfect sense to me, is there a spring upgrade that should be done at the same time too?Are there any issues with getting the alignment set after? If I want to lower the car a little is there anything that should be done at the same time, or a better spring with that in mind. I dont mind a little harsher ride in trade for better handling.
Thanks
Doug
I am sure this has been gone over in the past so rather thne bore everyone with repeating it on the forum, feel free to email me off the list
Doug
demacaulay@comcast.net

[pbrown]

One of the side effects of the Shelby drop is tha the front is lowered a little at the same time. Stiffer springs and a larger anti-sway bar will also help. Another add-on that you should consider is a set of roller spring perches.

http://www.opentrackerracingproducts.com/rollerperch/

Open tracker can set you up with everything you need to build a good performance front end.

Here are some other options:

Look at the spindles at www.totalcontrolproducts.com (http://www.totalcontrolproducts.com).
Look at the upper control arms at www.globalwest.net (http://www.globalwest.net)
Also look at the strut and rack & pinion options at www.rrs-online.com (http://www.rrs-online.com)

I'm not sure what your budget is and some of this stuff can get very pricey.

[Jerry Alfaro]

OK, second post in a few minutes, sorry:rolleyes: I am curiouys as to why you would lower the upper control arm?
Doug

Doug,

The purpose of lowering the upper control arms is to reduce the
front tire's tendency to lean with body roll, and increase it's
camber change for bump. This way, when the car is turning into a corner,
the body rolls, and so the tire would lean slightly out of the turn (not good),
but the body on the outside front is going to dip, which will reduce,
or counteract the lean out of the corner, so the front tire leans as
little as possible, or not at all. This increases traction and decreases
wear, and gives much more ideal handling to the vehicle. This will work
on all 1964 1/2 to 73 Mustangs. This is an old trick that Carol Shelby did to the GT-350 Mustangs
he raced in the 60's. I was wondering here on this form if it had been done to a Falcon.
Since my son and I will be doing a disk brake conversion on his 65 Ranchero,
I figured lowering the A-arms at the same time would be the right time.
You can lower the upper arms 1" with no other modifications, or
you can go for the more optimum 2" but you'll need to purchase or
fabricate special upper a-arms, or buy or make a negative wedge camber piece.
Making or fabricating upper arms would be the easiest. I have done this to
Mustangs I prepared for SCCA/Trans-Am racing when I worked for Bill Maier
of Maier Racing in the 70's and 80's.

jerry-

[Jerry Alfaro]

One of the side effects of the Shelby drop is tha the front is lowered a little at the same time. Stiffer springs and a larger anti-sway bar will also help. Another add-on that you should consider is a set of roller spring perches.

http://www.opentrackerracingproducts.com/rollerperch/

Open tracker can set you up with everything you need to build a good performance front end.

Here are some other options:

Look at the spindles at www.totalcontrolproducts.com (http://www.totalcontrolproducts.com).
Look at the upper control arms at www.globalwest.net (http://www.globalwest.net)
Also look at the strut and rack & pinion options at www.rrs-online.com (http://www.rrs-online.com)

I'm not sure what your budget is and some of this stuff can get very pricey.


Hi Pat,

I actually have the pieces for converting the spring perch's to bearings. When I was racing a 1972 TransAm Mustang MACH I, I had machined additional spare pieces for converting the rubber bushings to roller bearings. I have been hanging on to them since then so when we do the front end I will use these pieces for the spring perch's. I'm also planning to box the upper and lower A-Arms at the same time to stiffen them up. The only thing I'm still debating on going is converting the struts to spherical rod ends. It's a bit more work, but it sure keeps the front end geometry nailed in place. We will lower the rear end with lowering blocks after the front end is done so I'll know how much to drop the rear end. I have a line on a 'N' 9" from a GT 390 Mustang I can get for some porting on four banger Dodge head....

This Rancher is my son's every day driver so putting a 1" sway bar will also be in order. A 1" 1970 Monte Carlo sway bar with clipped ends and new mounts welded on for spherical rod ends works real good. I usually make multiple mounting holes so the bar can be adjusted for the weight in the front end. I can buy 700lb. springs and cut them for the correct ride height. I can get them through Maier Racing. I guess you could call me an old school road racer. When I was road racing you had to make what you needed, you couldn't go to the web or catalog and order what you wanted. I retired at the end of September and have lots of play time to do this stuff. Besides making or modifying these parts is giving me time well spent with my son and teaching him a few tricks.

jerry-

[Jerry Alfaro]

Thanks for the info, It does make perfect sense to me, is there a spring upgrade that should be done at the same time too?Are there any issues with getting the alignment set after? If I want to lower the car a little is there anything that should be done at the same time, or a better spring with that in mind. I dont mind a little harsher ride in trade for better handling.
Thanks
Doug
I am sure this has been gone over in the past so rather thne bore everyone with repeating it on the forum, feel free to email me off the list
Doug
demacaulay@comcast.net


Doug,

I plan to use 700lb. springs on my son's Ranchero. Depending on the weight of the 289 motor I think these will work fine. If you are planning to use a 351W then a heaver spring would be in order.

If you relocate the upper A-arms on your car I would use these specs for front end alignment for starters. Just remember, no power steering equals lots of arm muscles.

Caster = 0 degrees
Camber = 1/2 - 1 negative
Toe-In = 3/16"

You will need a 17/32" drill bit for relocating the Upper A-arms.

Since I don't know what tire sizes you are planning to use, here are specs after you have tried the above settings. This would be for 15" x 7" wheels.

Caster = 2 degrees
Camber = -1 degree
Toe-in = 1/8"
Ride Height = 8" from ground to center of lower A-arm inboard pivot.

jerry-

[Sedanman]

Hi Jerry,

I wouldn't suggest going with 700lb springs if you just have a small block. I've heard many say that 600lb springs are too stiff for the street, so if you want a stiff ride but don't want stress cracks all over your car (and a sore backside!) I'd go with the 600's, or GT springs cut to your preferred ride height. Just my $.02!

[pbrown]

Also keep in mind that springs get stiffer when cut. A 600Lb spring with a coil removed it no longer a 600Lb spring. I don't now how to calculate it so just be aware.

[Sedanman]

Patrick has a good point - that's why I got a pair of standard (non-GT) V-8 coils for my 6cyl car. Cut 6cyl coils were not stiff enough (and too low) for my tastes, so I'm hoping the ones I got will be about right. Another thing to remember is that new springs will sit higher than originals, and from what I've heard (haven't installed mine yet) do not settle much.

So if you want to go low, I'd go with the '65/6 Mustang GT coils (mustangs plus is one of the few places that carry them) and then trim to the ride height that you want. This is why I started with used V-8 coils as I thought it would be less trial and error, but one of them is sagging so I'm going to have to partially trim the new ones, install, let settle, and trim more later. That means another two trips to the alignment shop. Personally, I'd prefer to avoid this hassle and go with air ride :rolleyes:

T

[Cutman]

I looked at the links of R&P stearing set ups and the price is over $2k. Now the advantage is it seams to be bolt in. Not sure that it gives you the ability to lower the rig. I put a falcon specific aftermarket crossmember and all the suspension from a donor mustang II in my wagon. The cross memeber was $600 and the mustang was $200. I added dropped spindles for $200. Then cut half a coil (gonna cut another half coil). I have $1200 and my time into it. I now have R&P, disc brakes, and endless hieght optioins (even the optiono of a bolt in air ride kit for the MII front end). Pictures in my intro.

Just antother way to go if you are so inclined.
Keep wrenchin'.
Rob

Pics sitting after suspension in...


http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj317/IRCutman/Nosedown-1.jpg

[pbrown]

This is what I want.

[Jon Richard]

This is what I want.Sorry to bring this one back , but it would be irresponsible for me not to comment. That looks like the RRS stuff, which I have installed on my 62 Falcon two door wagon. THIS SETUP IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH TCP LOWER CONTROL ARMS. I was able to make it all work after having spent a few hundred on HOWE racing extended lower ball joints, custom machined tapered ball joint spacers, and threaded adjustable outer tierod ends but man what an expensive time consuming headache. RRS makes their spindles/uprights with a "corrected" ackerman angle to the steer arm putting the steer arm closer to the lower control arm at full droop. Not a problem with stock lowers but just be advised.

[DEMACAULAY]

Rob, I was wonddering what you thought of the conversion to the mustang two front end, What brand cross member did you use, did it fit well? Does it address the parrelle control arm issue that was brought up at the beginning of this thread? how did it go with adapting the r&p steering, did you use power steering? Did you smooth out the inner fenders since no shock mounts were needed? Do you have pictures?
Have you driven the car since the conversion? (from the picts it looks like it is still apart) Did the alignment come out all right? I have decided to stay sbf as far as eng goes but still not sure if I want ot mod my stock suspension or convert to M2 stuff. Just FYI I have a 64 falcon sprint convert.
Doug



I looked at the links of R&P stearing set ups and the price is over $2k. Now the advantage is it seams to be bolt in. Not sure that it gives you the ability to lower the rig. I put a falcon specific aftermarket crossmember and all the suspension from a donor mustang II in my wagon. The cross memeber was $600 and the mustang was $200. I added dropped spindles for $200. Then cut half a coil (gonna cut another half coil). I have $1200 and my time into it. I now have R&P, disc brakes, and endless hieght optioins (even the optiono of a bolt in air ride kit for the MII front end). Pictures in my intro.

Just antother way to go if you are so inclined.
Keep wrenchin'.
Rob

Pics sitting after suspension in...


http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj317/IRCutman/Nosedown-1.jpg

[Cutman]

http://www.rcmotorsports.net/
Is where I orderred my cross member from and it was a pretty straight forward install. Lots of measuring and double checking but it welded right in. No power steering. I did a lot of asking around and found that non-power was the way to go for the size and wieght of the car in an R&P set up.
I did smooth the inner fenders. We used a buddy's HF bead roller and made panels to fit after cutting out the shock towers. Came out so clean that even Falcon/Mustang guys take a second to realize what looks different.
I have not driven it much. To be honest and was leaving in apart for paint but that just fell through. So gonna be putting it back together and running it in primer for awhile. I am a couple weeks away from being done with a 67 VW Hiboy Roadster I have been working on since Oct. Here's a link to see what has the Falcon on hold http://www.volksrods.com/forum/showpost.php?p=295838&postcount=9 Once that is on the road I will get back to the Wagon.
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj317/IRCutman/Xmember.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj317/IRCutman/TowerRemoved.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj317/IRCutman/302Wagon.jpg
Hope this helps.
Rob

[Sedanman]

It's been awhile since I looked into it, but when I contact Rod and Custom Motorsports about their M-2 frontend, they said that it did not allow for lowering the car significantly. Just look at the size of the crossmember! Of course you can more easilly adapt air ride to that setup since it's so popular in the street rod world, but that does not allow for driving it at a lower height (geometry still changes when bags are deflated), mainly just for laying frame at shows. That's why I went with dropped spindles, not that they didn't cause other problems....;)

[Cutman]

Having installed the R&C kit, I believe, you could build up the frame rail that you mount it to to raise the crossmember by an inch (giving you one inch lower ride height). You will have to modify the tranny hump a little but I had to do that without raising the crossmember height. I would have do it had I realized it was possible at the time I installed mine. I also have 2" dropped spindles and cut 1/2 a coil out. I am going to take another 1/2 coil out and I think it gives a pretty low yet functional stance to the car.

[Jerry Alfaro]

Here is what the template looks like.

http://members.cox.net/mbstang/template.jpg

Pat,

I made a template for drilling the holes for relocating the upper a-arms. I made it off the template you provided. It worked great! Thanks


jerry-