engine swap

[Ric]

Hi all its Ric. I have been posting the odd vibration questions but today I have a new question. Will a ford inline 6 250 cubic inch from a newer falcon fit my 1964 falcon which now has a 200 and c4 transmission in it. I found one on the other side of the state so I cant just run over to check it out. The guy has it set up to run on a test stand . I just dont want to go over if it wont bolt up what do you think ?

[Luva65wagon]

It will all hook up, it's identical in many respects, but it is taller and hood clearance may be an issue. Nothing concrete on that last part, but that's what I've heard.

[SmithKid]

Take a look here for a discussion on that subject:
http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/falcon-pages/499870-1976-250-ci-six-63-falcon-ranchero.html

[dhbfaster]

How do you know the 250 is a good one?
That article makes it look like one change leads to another and another...

[Ric]

thanks you smithkid for the link about going to the 250 motor. I think I am going to pass on that option it is just to many mods to make it work. It was on craigslist in Spokane . Good thing you all told me about the hassles with that one .

[dhbfaster]

Not sure how much you want to spend Ric, but s&j engines in Spokane seemed to do a great job on mine. We pulled mine out, gave it to them with everything pulled off of it, dirty - got it back in a week better than new. $100 freight round trip from federal way. Anyway, seems like you still need to double check your compression.

[Luva65wagon]

I'll have to check the Ford 6 performance book (I now have two of) and see what they had to say about the swap. I didn't think there was as much difference as that link indicated. Eithee way I think a swap is extreme without definitive evidence of what you have going on there now. I'm out and about, but when I can look in the book I'll post what they say about the 250 (if only to satisfy my own curiosity). Until then we'll all await to hear what the compression reading is using the other tester.

[Ric]

I picked up a new compression gauge . This one said 110 - 125 on the compression.I went to a couple of tranny shops and they both said they would pull the transmission and flywheel , put on another flywheel and then run the engine to check for the vibration. Thus telling me if it is the engine or transmission. Oh they want $500 for that and all I get is the information. OUCH. They must think we are made of money LOL

[Ric]

Now I am wondering if this thing has the wrong fly wheel in it. Is there a difference in the fly wheel from a 1964 2 speed auto and 1964 and c4 ?

[dhbfaster]

Have you checked your U joints?
I had one go out on me before on another car and there was definitely vibration leading up to it. All my u joints were bad on the falcon too. Not difficult to replace either and relatively cheap.

I did find this article on flywheels and vibration.
http://www.doityourself.com/stry/3-signs-of-a-bad-car-flywheel

[Ric]

thanks dhbfaster but I had a new drive line made& balanced with new u joints when I had the diff rebuilt. I am 100 % sure it is rpm related because it happens in Park or neutral. Good idea though

[Luva65wagon]

I've been pondering this issue for a bit and finally had a quick read of the Ford 6 Performance Handbook from the Schjeldahl's. There's not a lot you can swap around internally to make this issue occur.

Because the compression is flat across the board, with more than just one tester, I thought through it all and there is one other thing that could have happened to cause this. A timing chain having jumped a tooth or two or not setup correctly (assuming this is, in fact, a rebuilt engine in the recent past) would cause low compression readings... and the resulting running condition could appear as though there was an imbalance.

Could be something else, but this low compression and the imbalance you feel could be related.

[Luva65wagon]

Also, not that you're going down this path, but for others interested, the 250 is a doable swap. The issues to someone wanting to keep any of the older transmissions and a couple other things from the old setup make it costly. According to "the book" it's a little easier on the 64/5 Falcons.

You would have some advantages with a 250 (way more transmission options being the main one), but the swap isn't a easy as the 144/170/200 interchanges.

[Ric]

Thanks liva65wagon. Well I dont use any oil or anything and 120 does seem a bit lower than the books are calling for and it does idle a bit rougher than I would like even when I have played with the timing. It sounds pretty smooth when going down the road though. Ya got me wondering though. Do ya really think it would even run without back firing and stuff if one of the gears was a tooth off ? I wonder if I will be able to tell without tearing the covers off of the timing chain..........HMMMM........sounds easier than pulling the transmission and running the engine like the transmission shop wants to do
NOW YA GOT ME PONDERING THIS ONE. I get awful gas millage too even with a brand new carb on it

[Luva65wagon]

I'd prefer pulling a transmission, personally, but something you said just now seems to push me further on the side of a non-weight related issue. If this imbalance doesn't get worse with engine speed, then it's probably not an imbalance after all. Things flinging out of balance tend to get more intense with speed. Anything will seem to run better once you've reached speed. Most effort to accelerate behind you, weight and momentum carry you along. But increasing engine speed should intensify a weighted vibration.

So I would focus on the low compression issue to begin with. The one thing you can do to check for an ultra loose timing chain is to put a socket on the crank bolt in the front and rotate the engine, by hand, to the left and right. You may have to loosen the fan belt so you are not fighting the fan. The cam and valves will resist turning more than the crank does, so you will feel a definite amount of resistance as the chain tightens in one direction and the the other when it is trying to move both crank and cam. Where the crank moves forth and back with the most ease will be when you are only taking up chain slop and only the crank is moving - and not the cam also. If, when you feel this increased resistance, you make a mark on the balancer (in one direction) and then reversing you make a mark using the same pointer mark (when going in the other direction), you can then surmise roughly how many degrees the crank can move without also moving the cam. If this is excessive, like more than 20 degrees, then the chain can be stretched enough to skip over a worn cam or crank gear.

This is really the only external test for a loose timing chain.

Note 1: A new chain will stretch very quickly to allow a few degrees of forth and back slop, but the total slop is really half that as seen by the cam. The engine only spins in one direction normally, so my test for total slop is not what the total number of degrees the engine is running off of. As chains loosen over time the running condition worsens, but an engine will run with a lot of cam degreeing. Racers sometimes do this on purpose.

Note 2: Though I'm not certain all of what motors Ford did this to, it was common in the 60's to have a nylon cam gear, which was added to an aluminum cam gear blank to make the thing quieter. You know how annoying that cam chain noise is. Yeah, right. The problem was that the nylon could fail leaving an aluminum set of gears, but way smaller. This is a common reason old, revived, Fords fail when brought back to life. These gears were one of Fords better ideas. Not.

If the chain doesn't seem too loose, there is still the potential for it having been installed wrong - if this is a recent rebuild. I'm still unclear from reading your posts whether you still hold to this notion of newness or not.

And yes, a motor can run with a timing chain jumped. But too many teeth off and all the valves open and close at the wrong point for optimum air intake and compression will suffer.

Good luck.

[Ric]

I have been thinking all this stuff over and over and over. My next step IS going to pull the valve cover and timing chain cover to have a good hard look at the timing chain marks and condition. I have a little trip going on over the week end so I am guessing it will get done on monday.[AGREE]