Old Car Safety

[BadBird]

I am pretty sure most of you saw this when it come out in 2009, but it is good information on how far the automotive industry as advanced in regard to auto safety. Larry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPF4fBGNK0U

[Wilbur]

I've seen this before, and it's scary to think I'm driving a Falcon with a solid steering shaft, no side impact protection, etc.

You know what though? I used to drive a motorcycle, now I have four wheels and some metal in front and behind me. :-)

You know what else? Cars are smarter and people are "stupider" these days, so we've likely made no progress, one step forwards, two steps backwards. Or zeroed out.

I don't know how old you are, but I grew up in the 60's and 70's (but I'm only 21 years old), and NEVER EVER did we see anyone driving while typing out a letter on a typewriter.

I imagine if I cop back then saw the absurdity of somebody typewriting while driving they would have just executed the culprit on the spot.

Today, it seems everybody is "typewriting" while driving and the keyboard is a fraction of the size of the a typewriter's keyboard, and this driving while typing kills nearly 4000 Americans every year according to the Center for Disease Control.

A few months ago in the parking lot of a Value Village, I saw a black car speeding through the parking lot, the driver did not have her hands on the steering wheel at all when I looked inside the car, both hands on a tech device, her head was facing DOWN looking at the screen. Unbelievable, but true story.

Cars are smarter, drivers are "stupider".

I knew an old long haul trucker, he told me that he knew other truckers who traveled over one million miles with zero accidents during their careers.

I drive my Falcon like it was a motorcycle, meaning I'm extremely vulnerable in the Falcon and I drive appropriately. I keep my safe zones, following distances, I drive within the limits of the car, I pay attention to what's a thousand feet ahead of me, I pay attention to everything, as if my life depends on it, because it does.

I will upgrade the Falcon one day, a roll cage with side impact protection, a non explosive gas tank, a jointed steering shaft, shoulder harness, and then maybe I'll be safer.

The bottom line regarding safety, though, boils down to the driver of the vehicle. They will never be able to pack enough "smart" into a car to counter the incredible "stupid" I see on our roads. As the old saying goes, if you manufacture something to be fool proof, they'll just build a better fool! (Insert laughing emoticon here :-) )

Despite all these safer cars, we are killing over 40,000 Americans on our roadways every year, nearly 4000 die from texting while driving, or tech use and driving.

10,000 die yearly in America from drinking and driving, nearly 1100 of those killed are children, every year, yes, 1100 children slaughtered on our roadways every year because somebody(s) decided to drive while sloshed.

Be safe out there, and as we said in the army, "stay alert, stay alive." Amen.

Oh, one more anecdote, story. Remember the bad winter storm five or so years ago? I recall seeing this late model vehicle, computers, airbags, crush zones, seat belts, four wheel drive, anti-lock brakes, the works, it sat at the bottom of a very steep ice covered hill, crashed. The driver tried to go down an extremely steep ICE COVERED road on that hill. It is the hill that goes up from Lake City Way, up 115th Street for those who know it.

There were many OTHER cars that attempted to drive down that ice covered road on that hill. There ain't enough tech and engineering in the world for people like that.

The good news... cars are safer. Now we need to work on safer people. :-)

[BadBird]

All excellent points Wilbur. We all see the drivers that do everything but drive in their cars. Just last night my wife and I followed a lady who was putting her makeup on while attempting to drive. She was all over the road, both hands off the wheel. You see them every day on every road. And, you are correct about the drunk drivers. Thanks for the input. Larry

[dhbfaster]

Pretty much agree Wilbur. I think traffic is much worse now too.
I drive (have driven and will again drive) (the falcon) with the same attitude, plus assume my brakes may not work! Hopefully that gets a step better. I only plan to add lap belts + I am completely redoing the brake system and switching to a double master. Add to that...I won't put a lot of miles on it. All that said, somehow nobody ever died in my falcon after all these years and it was driven pretty hard a few of those years. On the other hand...it doesn't go that fast either.
I do understand why insurance rates go down when you pass 25yrs of age however...so:
The one area I cringe a bit on....when I see that a 16yr old (especially male) has a falcon as a "daily driver"...especially if it has some hp. Looking back at my HS days...I was a pretty aggressive and oblivious driver back then and pretty much thought I was invincible and a great driver (regardless of the 1+ ticket per year and year after year trips to "comedy club defensive driving class" to get the tickets removed.) I can remember time after time that I would see how fast I could get the car to go before my wife would look up and ask "uh...how fast are you going?" (about 125 before she would ask. West Texas and Southern New Mexico have some wide open roads.:3g::3g::3g::3g:) (That was in the later 70's and early 80's.) Now today for a teenager, add probably driving more miles, the wet roads up here, cell phones, more traffic, etc...it's a lot. Then there's "the other guy" you have to worry about talking on their cell phone while smoking pot, on drugs, drinking, on smapchat, etc....:eek::eek: For their daily driver at least...I'd rather have my own teenager in a modern car. My 2c!

[BadBird]

As beautiful and fun to drive as our Falcons are, they have some glaring problems that get illuminated when we drive them in todays traffic issues.

When I bought the Falcon that I am driving for my son more than 20 years ago, the traffic and driving issues were no near what they are today.

He didn't drive fast, he drove it everyday, and is a safe driver.

The concerns I see have nothing to do with how well I drive my car. It has to do with how badly the rest of society is driving their cars.

Go online and look up crashes and you will see 90 percent have to do with a driver that either isn't paying attention, is going to fast for the conditions, or driving impaired.

I have drag raced, circle raced, street raced, you name it. But nothing prepares you for what is happening on the streets of today.

The points being made are all good. If you drive from the aspect that everyone else is trying to kill you then you will probably make it out and back. But their are accidents that none of us can prevent.

I would rather my wife was driving a newer car with air bags all over the place, collapsing steering wheel, side impact protection, shoulder harnesses, collapsing frame and body components, anti-skid brakes, and any other safety improvement I can get in her car.
She was hit broadside by a guy going way to fast, ran a stop sign after other cars had already gone out from my wife's lane. There was nothing she could have done. If that would have been in my 64 Falcon she would have suffered massive injuries. In her Honda she got a bump on her knee.

Don't get me wrong. The Falcons were and are great cars. But, they can't compare in safety aspects of today. Larry

[dhbfaster]

Yep...it's the other guy I worry about most. My wife and one son and I were on a hockey trip in Vancouver, BC. We had to do a lot of driving in poor conditions and challenging traffic in those days. Someone ran a light and turned right in front of us and boom...nothing I could do. We were in a late model Volvo XC90. The air bags exploded, the pyrotechnic seat belts exploded, and all the crunch zone stuff did its thing. $35,000 in damage to our car. Not a scratch on any of us. It was amazing. The others were in an old minivan and didn't fare so well. I don't think they were wearing any seat belts...so as you can imagine after I got the ambulance there they spent some time in the hospital but fortunately were all eventually ok. There is something to be said for the safety of today's cars. The next generation of cars might see that car coming and put on the brakes for me, and have no damage.

[Luva65wagon]

I think the key point Wilbur was making is the smarter things get, the stupider people get. And to some degree that is true. I think most get lured into a false sense of security.

I've commuted more in the past few years than ever. About 60 miles a day on certain days. I tried the freeway a first. Tried early, tried late trips. Ended up finding a back-roads route. People are simply growing more and more aggressive and offensive drivers. When you are tailed less than one car length at 60 miles an our - and you speed up to get away and they close the gap. Or you see a group of cars pass you on the freeway all tailgating at 70... you wonder why more are not dead.

I used to see people give older cars a wide berth, but not anymore. They'll ride you just the same. Makes me think when it's nice outside... Kia or Falcon? Kia wins more often than not.

:rain:

[ew1usnr]

Makes me think when it's nice outside... Kia or Falcon? Kia wins more often than not.

I googled "the most unsafe car" and found: "The 2011 Kia Rio had the highest rate of death, with 149 fatalities expected per million registrations." See: http://www.autoblog.com/2015/01/29/safest-most-dangerous-cars-on-the-road-2011-study/

New cars are safer, but then I read stories like this where a man died because he could not open his electrically-operated door:
See: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11667381/Man-dies-after-getting-locked-in-Corvette-after-car-battery-dies.html

Then there was the Takata air bag problem: "He should have walked away from the fender-bender. Instead, the 35-year-old married man was killed when a defective airbag exploded and sent a large piece of metal shrapnel into his neck."

And the Chevy Cobalt ignition switch problem: "The number of deaths tied to faulty General Motors ignition switches is up to 49 as a compensation deadline looms for people hurt ..."

The Falcon has a lot of features that were considered safety advances at the time that we just take for granted now.

Model-T Fords had a single hand-operated windshield wiper. Falcons had two self-powered wipers to allow the driver to keep both hands on the steering wheel.
1940 Fords came standard with just one brake light. Falcons had two brake and tail lights for redundancy.
Falcons also had turn signals rather than the driver having to rely on hand signals (a problem at night and during rain).
Falcons had safety glass all around.
Falcons had flow-through ventilation and a hot water heater core. Model A's and Volkswagen Bugs took heat off the exhaust manifold.
Falcons had energy-absorbing Life Guard steering wheels with collapsible spokes.
5330

I am not sure, but the Model-A may have only had rear brakes. The Falcon had hydraulics to apply even force to brakes on all four wheels.

Henry Ford did not trust hydraulic brakes because they could leak and preferred reliable steel rods to activate the brakes. I think that his arguments have merit: "Henry Ford famously refused to equip his cars with hydraulic brakes up until the bitter end, which in Ford's case was the 1939 model year. Instead, he insisted on "the safety of steel, from pedal to wheel," as the ad copywriters said." That sounds good to me.

A Falcon is by no means as safe as a new car, but at least driving a Falcon is (in my opinion) vastly safer than riding a motorcycle.

Additional windshield wiper trivia: "Following a collision one rainy night in 1917 between a National Roadster and bicyclist in Buffalo, New York, J.R. Oishei, the car's shaken driver, sought a way to keep windshields clear. He found a retired electrical engineer, John W. Jepson, who had invented a hand-operated squeegee known as "Rain Rubber". Put away in the car's tool box during fair weather, a driver took it out for foul weather, sticking its handle through the opening between the upper and lower sections of the two-part windshield. As the driver pushed the handle back and forth, the blade cleared the windshield. Oishei patented the device and in 1920 Tri-Continental Corporation (later known as Trico) was incorporated to manufacture it."

[dhbfaster]

Dennis, have you seen this one?

http://youtu.be/ShBoZt71pbs

Ford Falcon vs Chevrolet Corvair "no contest" video. You'll enjoy it.
I didn't realize all the safety features in the falcon!

[Luva65wagon]

So thankful my Kia is after they retooled and started making safe cars. ;)

I'll have to see what a 014 Soul does.

This is growing into a thread of unsafe proportions. It may in and of itself crash!

:ROTFLMAO:

[dhbfaster]

Car accident stats are always interesting because different cars attract different age groups and people with different attitudes. Not calling you old Roger, but.........:ROTFLMAO:

[ew1usnr]

Car accident stats are always interesting because different cars attract different age groups and people with different attitudes.

Are you calling Roger unsafe at any speed? :)

I was driving my Falcon a couple of weeks ago when I saw a woman driving a black, late model Corvair convertible with the top down, It really was a sharp looking car. I waved at her and she waved back.

That being said, I simply do not see Corvairs very often. I look for them at car shows and they just are not there. The public liked Falcons better at the time and Falcons outsold Corvairs by a wide margin. Falcons probably also proved to be longer lasting and more durable than Corvairs over time. I remember my father saying that all Corvairs did was leak oil. Corvairs wound up having a reputation as being unsafe and their re-sale value probably went really low. It would have been like owning a Chevy Cobalt now after all the hoopla about their bad ignition switches. Or like Ford Pintos after a few of them exploded.

Thanks, Don for posting the link for the Ford film strip where they compare the Falcon to the Corvair. Maybe I am biased, but to me the Falcon looks like a more practical and better car for less money.

It does seem to be a hazardous combination to put the gas tank and a gasoline-burning heater furnace next to one another under the hood on the Corvair. The gas tank would rupture if the car ran into anything. People worry about the Falcon gas tanks and what would happen during a hard rear-end collision, but it would be more likely for the car to be to sustain damage to the front in a wreck because cars typically are moving forward.

[BadBird]

The old cars have so many endearing qualities linked to our youth and the love of how they were built, their beauty, their uniqueness and all the other traits that keep us driving and restoring them. What one of us sees as a reason to keep one would not be the reason another of us would own a particular car.

The newer cars have the advantage of many years of learning and improving. Let's not forget that the difference from driving a 2016 car and the 1960 Falcon is 56 years. Go back to the 1960 and relive the cars 56 years prior to that and you are driving a 1904 Ford. Quite a bit of improvements there also.

I just remember my 1957 Chevy that I drove in high school. It was only 7 years old when I bought it, but still seemed old and needed so many repairs all the time.

Now Carol drives a 2000 Honda Civic that has never needed repairs, still feels new, drives like a charm and is hopefully going to provide us with many more years of use.

My 2004 Chevy Silverado after 108,000 miles still hasn't had a tune up, replaced the plugs, anything and it still gets 17 MPG. It is 12 years old.

It isn't fair to compare a 1960 Falcon to a 2016 car in regards to safety anymore than it would be fair to compare the 1904 ford to the 1960 Falcon.

I know one thing. Driving my Falcon is fantastic. But so was driving a brand new Corvette with 670 HP. NO comparison, but both have their own experiences.

IF we keep the rubber side down, drive at the speed acceptable for the location, pay attention to our surroundings and like always assume some jerk is trying to kill us, we will continue to keep driving them for years to come. Drive safe, have fun, don't drink and drive and no texting.

That being said, I can't wait to get my car on the drag strip and rip through the gears going as fast as my little yellow car can go. Larry:shift:

[Luva65wagon]

Why is everyone always pick'n on me?
;:)

For the record - yes, I drive like a grandpa. I admit I do follow the speed-limits. Wave at the officers holding radar guns. The last accident [I may have had anything to do with] was in the late 70's. Have been hit three times since. Was hit while driving down I-5 by a late 90's Mustang. He exited the express lanes at Northgate and went three lanes over and hit the rear-end of my panel tuck. I saw it, but barely felt it. I pulled over and waited for WSP to arrive. The Mustang had about a 3' deep cavern formed in the right front. Totaled. Mine had a very minor bend in the bumper. The WSP said I could go after taking a report, but I never heard anything afterward. Once was in my wagon when I wasn't even in the car and once was in my 07 Escape as I was stopped, signalling a left, and someone decides to ignore I'm there and hits me in the rear.

But what was said about accident numbers being based upon the car and the type of purchaser probably has some value. A Kia Rio for instance is an entry-level Kia and more a youth car. Ironic that the Soul was advertised as a youthful car, but I see very few youngsters in them - as opposed to something like a Scion XB.

I still think if you put a new car up against old, the new better be thankful it's got all of that safety stuff when it hits real steel.

[Wilbur]

I drive like a grandpa too, and I've avoided many accidents are a result. I don't own a cell phone, so I never take calls when I drive, and I won't even drive with drivers who use "hands free" devices because I was recently in a car with one such driver while they blew a stop sign and nearly killed a bicyclist who very deftly avoided being creamed by this person's car.

Sorry, I'm done with idiots who insist on driving while distracted. I won't even TALK to some friends while they drive because some people just cannot drive and talk.

It's dangerous out there, like somebody stated, you have to drive like other people want to kill you. It really is that bad. I usually ride a bicycle, ON THE SIDEWALK, and I still dodge cars daily. Even on sidewalks you have people speeding in and out of McDonald's parking lots or any parking lot, blasting right onto the sidewalk, or people driving right into you when you cross a crosswalk.

For the record, I have been hit FIVE TIMES or more while WALKING across crosswalks in Seattle with the light being GREEN TO WALK, well, white to walk. True story, now I cross crosswalks with my head spinning in circles to view ALL traffic from all direction and I shout at the top of my lungs at cars that continue driving toward me while I cross.

It really is as dangerous as if they were trying to kill you. Last summer I saw a woman lying in the street, Lake City Way around 125th, in that MAJOR crosswalk lit up like the fourth of July, some clown just hit her and hit her so hard her body and head were imprinted in the shattered windshield and paramedics worked on her as she lay in the street.

The summer before only half a block down, the road that leads from DICK'S onto Lake City Way, I saw a woman laying UNDER A CAR in the crosswalk as paramedics worked to save her.

It really is becoming sick, many drivers are truly beyond belief seriously ****ed up in the head and it's only getting worse. You can find the stat online, this year we are going to EXCEED 40,000 Americans dying on our roadways.

Let that number sink in...

The number of Americans seriously injured every year are in the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS.

Let that number sink in...

It's dangerous out there and sooner or later, as a nation we're gonna have to address this.

Speech over.

Badbird, I know the pleasure of ripping through gears, I used to own a 1969 MGB with a Chevy small block V8 for a motor. How I miss those days! My bone stock little V8 Falcon, a '64 with 260 cubes and factory stock, while it puts a smile on my face, is nothing compared to a truly potent car.

I guess if I had the cash I'd buy something new, with gobs of power, on the other hand, if I had that kind of money, I'd want something like a 1950's Ferrari Barchetta, or an Aston Martin DB5, or a 30's Bentley, and on the other hand I'd buy the new car because any vintage car I want will cost hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars. So a new Turbo Porsche will be cheap by comparison.

I would like to buy myself a 50's Allard J2, I believe the model is, a 2000 pound cycle fendered car with well over 300 hp from its 331 ci Cadillac motor, it was a demon back in the day and could probably still give 90 percent of modern cars a good run for their money with that power to weight ratio.

Dennis, the charm of your utterly untouched, unmodified car is also very appealing, especially as described by you. I occasionally look for a '63 Falcon V8 convertible and I would like the car to be exactly as you have yours, unmodified, exactly as original.

As you've seen me write before, my own "bone stock" unmolested '64 Falcon V8 sedan is a constant struggle because I would like to modify it but I hate to touch it.

Currently the ONLY mods are a bolt in 1 inch anti-sway bar up front, and that dang ugly aluminum radiator I have in it. One day I'll list an ad for a trade on here, trade my nearly new alloy radiator for an OEM nearly new Falcon radiator.

I may even return the original air cleaner to the engine bay, I forgot about that mod, I have a chrome air cleaner housing on it and it's ugly.

Aside from these things, my Falcon is original, unmolested, a bare bones basic '64 Falcon V8 with manual: brakes, steering, and transmission, no frills, no chrome other than the bumpers and a single strip down the center of the sides of the body, and the windshield surround.

It's a very basic wonderful car, I will not add disk brakes, and the only mods from here may be bolt on/bolt off stuff like a fiberglass front bumper, fiberglass hood, and frankly I don't even think I want to add the alloy intake I bought for it.

I considered headers but I may avoid even those, I want me a "Dennis-mobile" now, you've dang near got me convinced that I want an utterly bone stock time capsule that drives exactly as the factory intended it to.

Hopefully, one day, I'll get to see your car in person! If your car were a convertible I'd be plying you with cash! That's the type of condition I hope to find my convertible in! For now, due to my not having a garage, no nice cars. My beaters are fine without a garage but would benefit from one.

My unmolested '64 Falcon, I really wish I had a garage for that. I'm working on it! I can't wait to see this car painted and looking good!

[BadBird]

Good speech Wilbur. Larry

[ew1usnr]

I have always used my turn signal as a courtesy when making lane changes while in city traffic, but I will have to remember to stop doing that.

What happens now is that when I indicate my intent to move over, the driver behind me in that lane sees that signal and instantly floors it to close the gap. This seems to be the routine response from other drivers now.

While driving to work a couple of days ago, there was an opening and I tried moving from the center to the left lane. I was already halfway over as the guy that was behind me shot forward and just kept coming. I looked down and his fender was maybe one foot from my car door. I swerved back into the center lane and that "character" gained about one car length distance ahead of me.

[Luva65wagon]

Dennis. This reminds me of an incident I was in about 35 years ago - right after I moved to Washington. I was car-less at the time and getting rides from a coworker who behaved exactly as you describe. If someone signaled, he'd floor it. God forbid another car would be in front of him to slow him down. One day he did this and the car in front of him hit us. I sided with the person we hit. I didn't get to ride with him anymore.

I felt so much better about it.

:D

[BadBird]

Dennis, the same issue is across the nation concerning the signal before changing lanes. It is noticeable when I drive our cars but if you want to see it really go crazy you should be with us when driving our motorhome and pulling the car trailer.

To pull over that 65 feet of moving mass, you need quite a bit of room to pull into. When we are in traffic, I will have to drive quite a distance with our signal on before getting that much room. When some very nice person does give us that space, we invariably get an idiot who will go around them and pull into the empty space.

Now, I am learning to do it the way the truck drivers handle that. I just keep pulling over and squeeze the idiot over. I get a few horn honks, but it's the only way to handle some jerks.

Most of the time, I find that the large majority of people on the road are trying to be helpful and courteous. Just so happens that the minority as in all cases get to screw up everything for the majority.

When I worked for Boeing I was manager for Quality Assurance at several factories and while driving back and forth from Everett to Renton or Seattle my riders called me grandpa because I kept to the speed limits.

That being said, I still get a lead foot when driving my Falcon as some of you that have ridden with me can attest. But, not in traffic, and not in areas where I could hurt someone. Being a great grandparent 6 times doesn't keep me from wanting to go back to my days when I was 16-18. My mother on her death bed told me she still felt like she was 18, just her body didn't believe her mind. I understand now what she meant.

Much easier though back in Wichita area when I was young to find open roads.

Larry

[Luva65wagon]

This thread has definitely got us all thinking. Sadly I doubt there will ever be a good solution until they take all driving rights away from us and make the cars operate on conveyors of some sort. I know laws will not change people. How many still see cell phone glued to peoples' heads? A dozen or more a day for me.

I know for a fact that Metro buses will signal and pull out no matter what. I've been along side at least 3 buses in the past few years (the long bendy ones) and out of nowhere their front end swerves away from the curb and forces me to slam on my brakes. There was no indication coming up upon any of them they were about to pull out. I suspect it is the only way they would get back into traffic using just their signal. But when you are already alongside them, you can't tell anything. They just go.

I'd like to think that most people are trying to be courteous, but I think the trend is towards less of that.

Other things I notice more now than ever are when you know a lane is about to run out. Rather than merging over and zippering in early everyone rushes to the very end as the cones are forcing them over and this causes a hazard merge instead of smooth one. Actually causes the line to go slower than if they just all merged earlier. The two places I see this a lot at is getting off the express lanes going south and getting onto the express lanes going north. Same place - going different direction depending on the time of day. I have seen some incredible maneuvers to get over just in at the last second.

What I'd like to hear are what people think are solutions to these things. Will people go kicking and screaming "x amendment rights" if cars were automated? What if these things we've all lamented about here, was a ticket-able offence? What if we all had to take drivers tests every 10 years? It's one thing to rant about issues, it's quite another to come up with or suggest solutions. Almost any solution to any problem involves penalizing those to whom it doesn't apply.

[BadBird]

Oh my gosh Roger, what great comments. The argument about personal rights versus safety come to the forefront every time a new law is passed to help safety issues.

Trouble is, I get caught between the two issues. I agree that helmets prevent injuries, but don't agree that I shouldn't be able to make that decision.

I agree with seat belts completely, agree with child safety seats, even agree that red light cameras help to prevent accidents, agree that our new technological improvements can help.

But, I also feel threatened by a Government that starts telling us everything we can and cannot do. Like no smoking (which I never have). Like don't eat candy (which I always do). Like don't use incandescent lights (like kiss my what?). Shame on me.

Good Lord has this innocuous post become a Frankenstein moment or what.

I say let's go back to 1960, not read 1984 and start over. Larry

[dhbfaster]

The amazing thing...imho we have (relatively) the nicest, most considerate drivers in the country up here in the northwest.
In Texas where I'm from...no comparison! If you're not aggressive enough you will be cutoff every minute...especially if it's a pickup truck or Mercedes (profiling I know)
In Detroit where I go to work sometimes...worse than Texas! But all types of vehicles.
Then there's south China where I have been going for 12 years...it's a different world. You have a system of intimidation there that is more important than any laws or lights. Red light? Doesn't matter...go or get run over. Drive down the wrong side of the road? Sure, why not. Mix that with thousands of new drivers who are actually the opposite and don't "get" the system.

Well...my plane is taking off...(to visit family for the holidays) and no texting and flying allowed. Happy holidays and Merry Christmas to all of you. Next update...my solutions...

[ew1usnr]

It's one thing to rant about issues, it's quite another to come up with or suggest solutions.

Two words: Mass Transit.

Baltimore has free buses. They wanted to lessen traffic congestion downtown, so they have it set up so that you just hop on and do not need to worry about having correct change.

[ew1usnr]

I ... and frankly I don't even think I want to add the alloy intake I bought for it.

Is this an aluminum manifold for a 260 with a two barrel carburetor? Or does an intake for a four barrel also work with a two barrel?

My Falcon had an Edebrock aluminum intake manifold and four-barrel carburetor when I got it. I bought a two barrel carburetor, throttle linkage, cast iron intake manifold, and air cleaner cover off e-bay to put it back to original.

The original-equipment cast iron intake manifold weighs 40 pounds as indicated on a bathroom scale. The Edelbrock Performer aluminum intake manifold weighed 15 pounds (25 lbs less).

5346

[Luva65wagon]

Or does an intake for a four barrel also work with a two barrel?

Only with an adapter...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-1933/overview/

[ew1usnr]

Only with an adapter...

Hello, Roger.

That is interesting. If I ever have to remove my stock intake manifold for some reason, I will give some serious thought to re-installing the Edelbrock aluminum intake. Changing things, though, can lead to complications.

My car had this Edelbrock Performer #1404, 500 CFM, four barrel carburetor with manual choke on it when I bought it:
5347

5348

The background as to why I removed the "high performance" items and went back to stock was that the previous owner had changed the throttle linkage in order to make the four-barrel carburetor fit. This photo is with the two-barrel carburetor installed but with the modified throttle linkage still in place. It is just a rod connected directly to the pedal crank:
5349

Having a correct throttle linkage is (in my opinion) very important. You can't just stick something in there and expect it to work properly. The arc of the pedal range has to match carburetor throttle range. The spring tensions have to be correct to make the pedal comfortable to use while still providing a positive return. The original equipment throttle linkage for a V-8 engine and a Ford-O-Matic transmission is a complicated, engineered mechanism that incorporates swing arms, two springs, and transmission kick-down rod:
5351

I had to watch e-bay for a long time to find the right parts, but I eventually found them and everything went together nicely:
5350

[Wilbur]

You're absolutely correct, once somebody messes with the creations of the Ford engineers, they open a Pandora's box of of bodge jobs. One of my Falcons, another blue one like the one in my photos but a different one, he installed a four barrel carb and almost NOTHING worked right. There was no kick down for the automatic C4 transmission, and one day I figured out that the gas pedal was not opening the secondaries on the carb.

Another Falcon of mine, similar situation, somebody bodged it, and the car would never kick down to a lower gear, it was also a C4 equipped Falcon. Yes, it's best to leave the car alone and leave it stock, UNLESS you're prepared to follow a project through to the end.

Speaking of which, today I "almost" finished installing an air cleaner housing on my black Futura Falcon. Simple sounding isn't it? Buy air cleaner housing, bolt onto car, right? WRONG.

Single barrel carb for my inline six, I buy the very same air cleaner housing I bought for my other Falcon, but this time the opening is ever so slightly too small. So I spent twenty minutes with a file widening the opening of the lower housing so it would fit onto the carb.

Then I had to manufacture my own bolt so I could install a wing nut onto it to hold the housing to the carb. This became a huge project, I had to use a hacksaw for the threaded rod, I had no vise, it's not easy without a vise. Then I screwed up and the rod was too long, and when I closed the hood it rammed the rod through the threaded part that it was threaded to, stripping the threads and making that part of the carb USELESS.

Thankfully I had a junk carb laying around and I took that part from it. Then I created my own "vise" from a wood block, drilled a hole, stuck the threaded rod into it to hold it in place, and cut it with a hacksaw again, this time much easier than the last.

Both times I had to file and work on the threads after sawing because sawing damaged the threads.

Tomorrow I have to buy two nuts so I can lock the threaded rod into place so it won't turn while I twist the wing nut onto it.

This has been a two day project with about three hours total spent, just to install an aftermarket carb housing.

I have to use an aftermarket housing because I installed a Monte-Carlo bar and that prevents use of the stock factory air cleaner housing.

Yes, it's a domino effect when you begin to change what the engineers created long ago. In my case, I believe it's worth it, all the changes I've made to my cars provided me with a lot of enjoyment.

I did remain stock on one part this week, precisely to save me the problems you've mentioned Dennis. I had a seventy six Ford Granada anti-sway bar laying around, and rather than schlepp to Bellevue the long way around to avoid the toll on my car which has no toll equipment, to buy an anti-sway bar, why not use the Granada bar?

I still needed mounts and end links, and the process of finding high performance polyurethane mounts and end links because a tortuous nightmare so I said screw it and checked for factory BONE STOCK parts, and not only were they easy to find, they were right there in the store at O'Reilly Parts.

It was a done deal! So now the bar is mounted, that too became a project for reasons I won't waste words on, but much trouble was saved by using stock mounts and parts needed to install the Granada bar, and best of all? I'm using an authentic vintage FoMoco part that was MADE IN AMERICA. No mystery meat here.

NOBODY HAS A PLUCKING CLUE where their parts are made these days, not CJ Pony, not Falconparts, not NAPA, NOBODY (except for Cobraautomotive) but I know where my seventy six Ford Granada bar was made, in the US of A. I should add that I recently bought about $400 of parts from Falconparts a few weeks ago, and though there is no indication of where the parts are made, they look like very high quality parts and I have no complaints and will continue to do biz with Falconparts out of California.

Anyway, yeah, I agree Dennis, unless you have a very burning desire for a specific goal, it's best to leave the car alone, leave it stock, I've owned plenty of hacked, molested, bodged, bloodied, screwed up cars that were worked on by hatchet murderers.

Leave cars be, keep it stock, unless you really really really want to reach a specific goal and it makes you happy enough, just leave the car alone and enjoy it!










Hello, Roger.

That is interesting. If I ever have to remove my stock intake manifold for some reason, I will give some serious thought to re-installing the Edelbrock aluminum intake. Changing things, though, can lead to complications.

My car had this Edelbrock Performer #1404, 500 CFM, four barrel carburetor with manual choke on it when I bought it:
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5348

The background as to why I removed the "high performance" items and went back to stock was that the previous owner had changed the throttle linkage in order to make the four-barrel carburetor fit. This photo is with the two-barrel carburetor installed but with the modified throttle linkage still in place. It is just a rod connected directly to the pedal crank:
5349

Having a correct throttle linkage is (in my opinion) very important. You can't just stick something in there and expect it to work properly. The arc of the pedal range has to match carburetor throttle range. The spring tensions have to be correct to make the pedal comfortable to use while still providing a positive return. The original equipment throttle linkage for a V-8 engine and a Ford-O-Matic transmission is a complicated, engineered mechanism that incorporates swing arms, two springs, and transmission kick-down rod:
5351

I had to watch e-bay for a long time to find the right parts, but I eventually found them and everything went together nicely:
5350

[BadBird]

In every story their are always at least two sides. Don't misunderstand, I am all for either side. The folks who love the Falcons for their originality are adamant that they should stay that way. There are those in the Falcon family who are just as adamant about changing things.

Sometimes the changes are for the better, sometimes they aren't. If we all stayed with stock and nothing else, there wouldn't be Hot Rods, Drag Races, Paint styles beyond belief and even down to the Rat Rods.

There are things about the 60's Falcons that absolutely were not good engineering, even for that era. But, to keep costs where the average American family could afford them, they were fantastic cars.

I would tell anyone to change certain things about their Falcons due to safety issues. Other than that, can't think of a thing that needs to change from the original.

That said, I left my (non-stock) Falcon stock on the outside, interior is stock less a stereo added in the glove box with two additional speakers on the package shelf and a tachometer on the Ididit steering column with new steering wheel.

I drove the car with the original 260 V8 when we bought it for our son Dallas. It got you from A to B, but? It also had horrible brakes that he built to original specs and still were only acceptable. But they would get you stopped at B if it was quite a distance to B.

As most owners know, the single bowl brake cylinder is perfect if nothing goes wrong. But, as some of you know, stuff happens and the dual bowl is better.

We need to not get locked into our way or my way is better, they are all good, even the Rat Rods which I admit doesn't fit in my psyche. But it fits in those guys minds so have fun.

I like the stock Falcons. I like the Falcons with blowers and 15" wide tires on the back. I love mine and I am sure you love yours. That is all that matters.

Larry

[ew1usnr]

[SIZE=4] As most owners know, the single bowl brake cylinder is perfect if nothing goes wrong. But, as some of you know, stuff happens and the dual bowl is better.

I am glad that you guys persuaded me to upgrade my car to the 1967 Mustang dual master cylinder and talked me through the conversion process. That was a huge improvement.

5364

The original manual drum brakes are adequate for a car in its stock configuration if they do not get wet, if you don't tail gate the car in front of you, and if you do not drive too fast. Making an emergency stop with drum brakes anywhere above 55 mph is an exciting experience.

The original 90, 101, and 164 horsepower engines were not very powerful and that in itself helped keep the speed within the design capacity of the original brakes. If you drop a bigger, heavier, higher-powered engine in the car, the original brakes will not be sufficient.

The six-cylinder Falcons had 9-inch drums and the 260 V-8 Falcons had 10-inch drums that were also used in the mid-sized V-8 Fairlanes. That is interesting because if the 10-inch brakes are barely marginal by today's standards in a Falcon, they would be even worse in the heavier Fairlane.

One thing that I do like about my drum brakes is the "squuuueeak" sound that they sometimes make when stopping at a red light. That squeak reminds me of elementary school and the sound that the school buses made when they stopped.

[dhbfaster]

I'm with all you guys. Definitely one change leads to another. I definitely like the original falcons, but I really like and appreciate all the resto mods too and even the crazy stuff is now a form of art to me. I can also appreciate how mods give us another way to keep enjoying the hobby too.
Most of all,I really like our clubs attitude on all of it. It's a very accepting club.
I'm comfortable now that I can have a basically original falcon and not worry at all that I have upgraded brakes and added seat belts or a couple other things which will simply allow me to enjoy the car more or not spend crazy money to get something exactly original.

Dennis, maybe the others that know more will chime in, and maybe you tried this already, but I don't think your brakes need to squeak. My memory (I used to work at my Dad's RV dealership) says it's probably related either to brake dust or rubbing of the shoes against the back plate, or worn out. I think yours are probably not worn out? Also, if you got new shoes when you had yours done, if they don't fit up just right sometimes it causes some vibration which means squeaks. If you got new shoes, I would go back and tell them they squeak too much, if you didn't, I would remove the drums, clean everything up really good with brake cleaner, put a dab of anti squeak grease on the back plate where the shoes rub (not on the braking surface), reassemble, and squeaks might be gone...good luck.

[ew1usnr]

If you got new shoes, I would go back and tell them they squeak too much, if you didn't, I would remove the drums, clean everything up really good with brake cleaner, put a dab of anti squeak grease on the back plate where the shoes rub (not on the braking surface), reassemble, and squeaks might be gone...good luck.

Hello, Don.

The brakes were one of my first "big ticket" repair items.

I bought the car in July 2012, and it looked like it had been sitting somewhere for ten years. The tires were not worn, but they were ten years old and dry rotted. In August 2012, I had a new set of tires installed. I looked at the brakes while they were changing the tires. They looked OK, but .... I noticed that the self adjuster on the right front brakes was backwards:

5365

I added that to my "to do list" and kept driving the car. Then I noticed that I was frequently adding brake fluid to the reservoir. In December 2012 I took it to Meineke and told them about the self-adjusters and losing fluid and asked them to check the brakes. Well, ... They called back and said that my wheel cylinders were leaking and the rear drums were grooved and could not be turned.

The bill turned out to be: He had repacked the front wheel bearings, added two front brake wheel seals (parts $14.78), two front wheel cylinders ($40.72), two rear wheel cylinders ($36.24), a left rear self-adjuster cable ($19.85), rear brake shoes ($36.85), two rear brake drums ($137.36), and rear brake hardware ($18.40). Total = $348.10 parts/shop supplies + $254.70 labor + tax = $690.15. Wow! It was better than the alternative, though, of running out of brake fluid and crashing into something.

And yes, I could have done it myself. I hate working on brakes, though. It is a messy pain to bleed the brakes and it is a royal pain to cock those springs into position without the correct brake tools. Plus, the springs will wreck everything if they are not in correctly and pop out of place. I preferred to pay the labor and let them do it.

That was about 12,000 miles ago and they had just replaced the rear drums and shoes. How long do a set of brake shoes typically last?

The squeaky brakes are not a critical item, but I will save your description of what to check and have the guys at Meineke take a look at them whenever I am there next. I am due for an oil change in about 300 miles. I could let them change the oil and clean up the brakes at the same time.

Here is a completely unrelated photo that I like. A trio of hotrodders from 1924. The expressions on their faces are great.

5372

[ew1usnr]

Note to Larry:

Send this link to your brother with the Fairlane. Here is an incredible 1964 Thunderbolt tribute: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj29Zf2Uua0

Wow! That car is cool. It remotely pertains to the topic of "Old car safety" because he says at the end that "cars like this will never be built again" because the new cars are safer.

Oh, geeze, though, I would love to take that jazzed up Fairlane for a spin.

[BadBird]

I wish you could ride with my brother in his Fairlane. We will find out if his car or mine is faster this year if the Lord is willing. I just have to install my new rear end, line lock and shift light.

His car has a 460 at over 400 HP, turns in the mid 12's at 107mph. He just changed the rear end to a 4.56 to get better times, we'll see how that works out.

I can tell you, that I absolutely love opening the e-cutouts on my Falcon and stomping the gas. There isn't much to compare to the feeling.

My brother Jerry and I saw a bunch of the 64 Thunderbolts when they first came out when we lived in New Jersey and raced at ATCO dragway in the 60's. I can still see them in my mind. They behaved differently than all the other cars. When they came off the line, they raised up at all four wheels. There were no other cars that could beat them in 64. I have heard that there were a few Falcons and Comets that had the 427, but never saw one.

[dhbfaster]

There are a lot of interesting takes on safety advancements.
The article in the link below includes some (right or wrong...not sure) I never thought of like...

radial tires (one more reason not to spend the extra money on the Coker's)
safety glass
Unleaded fuel

http://jalopnik.com/the-ten-most-important-safety-advancements-in-automotiv-1462200446

[SmithKid]

I was at the Arlington (Washington) drag strip (actually the airport) as a spectator back in the day, and often saw 427 Comets and 289 Cobras run there. As I recall, one Comet was from Yankee Mercury. The Comets had a similar suspension that lifted the entire car while under power. I thought it was neat to see them bounce during the gear change. I figured that lifting motion helped the traction. I marveled at the cars at the time, and I guess I still do in my memory!

[BadBird]

Don, that is some great information. All those safety advancements can be seen throughout the racing industry refinements.

If you go back and look at the NASCAR, Drag Racing, or all racing for that matter you can see them changing the cars.

If you look at crash records of NASCAR going back to the 50's you will see crashes that killed the drivers where as today they wouldn't have got a bump.

For those of us that drove the cars back in the 60's we can see all the technology improvements and see what they have accomplished. The padded dash saved lives, seat belts improved on that, three points belts improved on that, air bags went further.

I can remember trying to stop my 57 chevy in a hard stop and remember the improvements of the anti lock brakes. There is no comparison and thousands if not more have survived by just that improvement.

I can verify the improvement of the collapsible steering column. I was driving a mountain buggy (old 52 Plymouth) dual rear wheels, made into the buggy, no doors, just for hunting. Hit ice in the mountains going way to fast of course and slammed into a tree of the side of a cliff. Broke the car in half, I went through the windshield, broke off the steering wheel, caved in the dash, woke up laying 50 feet below the car. 7 broken ribs, glass cuts all over, but the steering column did the most damage along with the two radio knob posts.

Then we have the tires, the suspension changes, the side impact air bags, major changes to the structures to improve side impacts and collapse like accordions from front impacts, side air bags, the list goes on and on and on.

The improvements are being made every year and I read an article where Volvo believes that in the very near future they will have a car that is fatality free. Not sure if that is possible but more power to them.

Thank God we have the old cars, but there cannot be a discussion concerning safety related to old versus new. The engineering is getting updated daily.

1910 versus 1960 saw a few improvements in safety, but actually, not that many. Look at the difference in the next 50 years. Amazing. What will the future years entail. Probably make us stop driving and ride the stupid *&%* busses or trains or ??? Larry

[ew1usnr]

Making an emergency stop with drum brakes anywhere above 55 mph is an exciting experience.

I drive The Wonder Falcon to and from work everyday at around 45 mph and do not have a lot of experience at making sudden stops with it at higher speeds. I was provided an opportunity to try that out while driving north on I-75 yesterday afternoon.

There were orange barrels along the edge of the highway and a state trooper was parked on the shoulder of the road with his lights flashing to indicate that this was a construction zone. There had not been an accident, no one had been pulled over, and nothing was blocking the road, but people saw the flashing lights, hit their brakes, and traffic came to a complete halt. I had been buzzing along at 75 mph when I suddenly saw a mass of brake lights ahead and applied my brakes, and had to press harder, and then harder. The distance between me and the car ahead was diminishing rapidly and my wheels were just beginning to lock (bump bump bump bump) when the Falcon finally stopped.

Whew! It takes a lot of room for the drum brakes to get that car stopped from 75 mph, especially in comparison to what you would expect from a newer car with power anti-lock four-wheel disc brakes.

Post-script:
I just looked up some figures and was surprised.

A Motor Trend road test for a then new 1963 six cylinder Falcon convertible reported that the brakes "performed exceptionally well" and "60-mph panic stops were accomplished in 126.5 feet".

A recent Motor Trend road test for a 2016 Mustang GT reported "BRAKING, 60-0 MPH, 109 ft".
See at bottom of article: http://www.motortrend.com/news/2016-ford-mustang-gt-first-test-review/

The 2016 Mustang GT with four 13-inch disc brakes stopped only 14% shorter than the 1963 Falcon. Huh. That makes the Falcon look impressive.

Maybe an accumulation of brake dust has made my brakes less grippy. I will have them inspected and cleaned this month when I have the oil changed.

[ew1usnr]

I came across this picture of a 1961 Ranchero.

5448

It is interesting in that while the front end was completely destroyed, the car appears to have maintained its structural integrity from the firewall back and passenger space is intact. The windshield is not even cracked.

The Ranchero protected its driver and he is now selling parts from the car on e-bay.

[Luva65wagon]

Very interesting the stuff you can and can't see. A power brake booster? A 5.0 roller motor. No clue about the seat belts or if he collapsed the steering wheel.

Do you know him? What the heck did he hit?

[ew1usnr]

Do you know him? What the heck did he hit?

Hello, Roger.

The e-bay seller is in Hornbrook, California. I do not know him. I just read the following in an e-bay ad: "I totaled my national award winning 61 ranchero daily driver (3rd at the San Ramon Nationals) so I don’t need these parts from it any more. I’m not going to build another Ranchero so all my extra parts must go."

See: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1960-1961-1962-1963-1964-1965-FALCON-RANCHERO-BED-TRIM-PIECES-POLISHED-60-61-62-/262249590795?hash=item3d0f4b300b:g:p8EAAOSwCypWnsH v&vxp=mtr

Before:
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After:
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This photo of a 1962 Falcon shows the importance of seat belts. You can see where the driver's and passenger's heads hit the windshield.

5451

[SmithKid]

I contacted him thru eBay asking about bed trim. In his communication, he stated that..... "Three point seat belts kept me in the bucket seat even when the car rolled after impact with the 18 wheeler." Although I don't understand how the car rolled without taking out the windshield. Makes me VERY happy that Roger installed (with my help) 3-point belts in my car too.

[Luva65wagon]

Makes me VERY happy that Roger installed (with my help) 3-point belts in my car too.

Gene - sad to say you'll only know how well we did...

...well, let's hope you'll never need to know.

:WHATTHE:

[BadBird]

Makes me want roll bars, 5 point safety harness and Roger, can you put air bags in my Falcon. Larry

[Luva65wagon]

...and Roger, can you put air bags in my Falcon.

First of all, are you sure you weren't at the meeting last night? That question was asked there too.

Second of all, sure. They might go off hitting a pot-hole or while drag racing, but putting them in is probably not that hard.

http://cheezburger.com/7635037696

[BadBird]

Wish I could have been there. Maybe I was and forgot? Anyway, I have looked at 3 point seat belts but don't like the installation process on the hardtops. I did find this link for a so called 4 point belt. There are really only 3 points with four straps. What if any experience/knowledge does anyone have on this. Larry


http://wescoperformance.stores.yahoo.net/4posebepubub.html

[ew1usnr]

Whew! It takes a lot of room for the drum brakes to get that car stopped from 75 mph

I took The Wonder Falcon in to have the oil changed and I also mentioned a tic tick tick sound and my squeaky brakes.

The tick tick tick sound was from a leaking "doughnut" gasket where the exhaust pipe joins the manifold.

The brakes were squeaking because the front shoes were worn down almost to the rivets. I had new brake shoes installed, the front drums turned, the front wheel bearings packed. and the brake lines flushed. These are the new brake shoes:

5452

5453

Yay! Now the car should stop more quickly. I will pick the car up this evening.

[dhbfaster]

Were they almost to the rivets or actually to the rivets? To the rivets would usually mean an audible squeal...maybe just starting though. Anyway, Glad you're good to go now. Nice and quiet now I hope.:shift:

[BadBird]

Those are some nasty looking parts in there. They look like they are 50 years old. They might even look 51 years old. Larry

[dhbfaster]

Dennis, did they check the wheel cylinders? And do you know how old those are?
I can't really tell anything from the picture.

[ew1usnr]

Badbird Larry commented:
"Those are some nasty looking parts in there. They look like they are 50 years old. They might even look 51 years old."

I was kind of surprised that they had re-used the old springs. They are not bent or rusted and they look to be installed correctly so I guess that they are OK. The next time I have the brakes worked on, though, I will have to remember to specify that they install new brake hardware.

Don asked:
"Were they almost to the rivets or actually to the rivets? To the rivets would usually mean an audible squeal...maybe just starting though. Anyway, Glad you're good to go now. Nice and quiet now I hope."

The one shoe that I picked up and looked at was worn almost to the rivets. Maybe one of the other shoes was worn to a rivet. The mechanic told me that is why the brakes were squeaking. That made me feel a little dumb. The car was telling me that the brakes needed work and I was not listening.:(

Don asked:

Dennis, did they check the wheel cylinders? And do you know how old those are? I can't really tell anything from the picture.

Yes they did replace the wheel cylinders, which is kind of funny because they were only three years old. They replaced the new wheel cylinders and kept the old springs. Oh, well.

Now we get into the bigger development. When Don brought up gear oil I mentioned that I had a lot of gear whine from my differential. It had done that since I had bought the car 3 1/2 years ago and it is loudest at 55 mph. The car would also wobble a little at 10 mph and would (most of the time) shake at 50 - 60 mph. I had balanced the the wheels and rotated the tires but the wobble did not go away. I had gotten used to the shake wobble and whine symptoms so that they didn't bother me much and it was in the back of my mind to do something about them someday. Well, ....

When the mechanic called me back to say that the brakes were finished, he asked if I knew that the differential was "leaking on one side" and said that the rear end was "howling". He said that what I thought was gear whine was a bearing going bad and that the differential needed to be rebuilt.

Example differential for a 1965 Falcon:
5456

Well, uh, gee. It wasn't like he was coming up with this out of thin air because I had suspected that there was something going on. So I said, in Roger fashion, "OK. But while you are at it ..." I asked them to install new wheel bearings, inspect the u-joints, and check the drive shaft to make sure that it is straight and balanced, and check to see if an axle was bent. That was yesterday.

Example Ford 8-inch differential rebuild kit with four bearings:
5457

He said that they would get to work on it starting this morning and that he had a press that he would use to remove the wheel bearings. He said that they would send the drive shaft out to have it spin tested for balancing and straightness. He said that he could easily spot a bent axle and did not think that finding a replacement, if necessary, would be difficult.

Not that I am going to do it, but if I were to add posi-traction, now would be the time. Usually, there are pluses and minuses to everything. I asked my mechanical engineer buddy what are the minuses to posi-traction. He said: "They are noisier, and that is what you are trying to get away from. They are also a maintenance item because they have a clutch surface that wears out."

[BadBird]

There are may different types of limited slip differentials, traction lock, full spool lock ups, etc. There are benefits of course, but only for specific applications. There is an increase in initial cost, there can be an increase in repair, but if taken care of, then? There definitely can be an increase in noise, but in my 8" posi-trac that I have now, there isn't any noticeable noise.
For the type of driving you do, I wouldn't say you need posi-trac. But who knows. You may like it more than what you now have.
I have always loved posi in my 57 Chevy, my Olds 442, my 65 Corvette, and in my Falcon. You can probably find a million other pros and cons on the internet. Larry

[ew1usnr]

Hello, Larry.


There are may different types of limited slip differentials, traction lock, full spool lock ups, etc.

I really had no idea that there were so many variations. I will have to look each type up on Wikipedia and become educated.


For the type of driving you do, I wouldn't say you need posi-trac. But who knows. You may like it more than what you now have.

For the type of driving that I do, I rarely even spin one wheel. The high-performance aspect of posi-trac is kind of irrelevant for what I have. When the pavement is wet from rain, though, it is sometimes difficult to get moving without spinning a wheel. The posi-trac would be nice to have under that circumstance.

[BadBird]

Oh my gosh, with your analytical mind you will spend a month on this subject. Realize though that there are those who complain about posi-traction in rain/snow.

I love them in the snow, but again, with the driving that you have described to us (which I love reading about) it really wouldn't behoove you. (that is a real word) to change.

I have driven cars on the drag strip with a spool and it was great for that purpose. Wouldn't want to drive it on the street.

My favorite for the street is what I have now and what I am putting in my 9" rear end (supposed to get it tomorrow) is the Ford Traction Loc which is very good for the strip, and doesn't cause a lot of ratcheting and noise on the street.

Good luck with your search and hope I didn't create a Frankenstein. Larry

[dhbfaster]

Dennis, You're making me feel a lot better that I have redone all that stuff on mine (still hoping it all works of course.) :ROTFLMAO:

Posi-track...totally agree with Larry...for your type of driving...not worth the extra spend.
Meanwhile, The mechanics are not just replacing the rear wheel bearings, but all the bearings in the diffy too correct? (Nobody seems to call them diffy's around here, but back when I was a kid putting fluid in them all day...we called them diffy's.) I think without drain plugs on these falcon diffy's people rarely change the fluid in them and that's why these bearings go bad when they are only 50 years old. :WHATTHE: I suspect if the fluid was changed in the diffy every five years everything would be pretty nice in there.

Now, one "While you're at it" to ask the guy...what about your u-joints? Are they checking them and/or replacing them? Mine still functioned, but when I got the drive shaft off and looked at them they were all shot. AND...they are CHEAP (especially compared to a pos-track, etc.). (Incidentally I put my new ones in my nicely painted driveshaft last weekend- man they look nice...they were easy enough to take out but for some reason I couldn't get the tension right after I put them back in. (Too tight) I don't give up that often, but I didn't want to beat it all up so I finally gave up on it and took it into my tranny guy to take care of. It should be easy for them with all the right fixtures to hold everything. Hopefully I can pick it up tomorrow. :shift:

Larry, are you clear on the brake fluid topic yet? I think I've gone 360 three times now and I'm planning to go back to standard "synthetic" (ha) DOT 3. I've decided I'm NOT going to take those cylinders off again and clean them....and apparently DOT 3 should stop better anyway.

[BadBird]

As far as the brake fluid, I don't have any intentions in changing mine. Just a lot of issues that go back and forth between the two sides. Not worth the hassle for me when I don't know if it's better or not. More to come for sure. Larry

[SmithKid]

Old car safety
Dennis, for what it's worth: I was considering the installation of a limited slip rear end. I actually had talked with Larry about acquiring his 8" take-out. I've had them before, and currently have one in my little truck (Ranger 4x4, but that's for a different reason). I do not race any more, and with my Falcon I NEVER do standing start burnouts. Though I DO like to run it through the gears :3g:, the most it does is "chirp" the tires on shift now and then on dry surfaces. That's enough to make me happy and seems to put a big :D on my face every time. So I decided to not do the conversion. I think the most I will do is put on a set of T-bars of some sort the control the wrap-up, but that's for the future. Not to tell you what to do, but I feel a limited slip would be a waste of $$$ for you too.

[ew1usnr]

[B]Not to tell you what to do, but I feel a limited slip would be a waste of $$$ for you too.

Hello, Gene, Larry, & Don.

I retrieved The Wonder Falcon from the mechanic's shop yesterday after work. I did not want to test drive it during Friday evening rush-hour traffic, but I did not not hear any sound from the back end on the drive home. I'll take it out later this morning and run it up to 75 mph in the Interstate and see how it does.

The mechanic did not change the ring and pinon gear. He said that they were OK, but he had adjusted them closer to make up for wear.

He replaced the bearings in the differential and the wheel bearings.

He sent the drive shaft out to have it balanced and they also installed new universal joints. The mechanic said that when the drive shaft went out it had a big weight on it and when it came back it had a smaller weight.

They also fixed an exhaust leak and re-built the front brakes.

The invoice showed the following parts numbers:

Outer Axle Bearing (2) RW207CCRA
Rear Axle Seals (2) 13700
Pinion Oil Seal 18100
Differential Gasket Set RDS13270
Carrier Bearing Kit (Master Kit) SDK310MK
Front Brake Shoes TS TS154

Here are the parts descriptions:

SKF Differential Kits SKF differential kits come in either a standard kit or a master kit (MK). Standard differential kits from SKF contain all the components needed for a complete repair, including: •Pinion bearings •Differential bearings •Pinion seal •Pinion nut •Crush sleeve (where applicable) •Gear marking compound and brush •Thread locker •Silicone sealant. Master differential kits from SKF contain all the elements that come with the standard differential kits, as well as: •Pinion shims (where applicable) •Pinion adjusting shims •Differential shims •Ring gear bolts. 36-month/45,000 mile warranty.

Pinion Seal 18100 Spring Loaded, SKF Patented Bi-Directional Wave Seal, Positive Fluid Control, High Quality General Purpose Rubber, Temps from -40 Deg F to 250 Deg F.

NAPA Proformer Brake Shoes TS TS154. Brake Shoe Friction Material Attachment : Bonded
Brake Size : 10" x 2.25". Features and Benefits: Basic Reliable Friction.
Premium Friction Materials - Restores Braking To Premium Performance Levels.

[ew1usnr]

It was 53° and mostly cloudy at 9:00. I ran the car up I-75 for 25 miles and then turned around.

On the good side:
The brake squeal, the low speed wobble, the flutter sound from the exhaust leak, and the loud gear whine from the differential are all gone. The car runs great at 70 mph.

On the disappointing side:
I still notice a vibration in the 55 - 65 mph range that is not there at other speeds. The vibration is most obvious while speeding up or slowing down through that speed range. The vibration is reduced from what it was previously, but it is still noticeable. The vibration decreases, however, if the speed is held steady while at at 60 - 65 mph.

I'm just going to drive the car and not worry about it.

[Jeff W]

N

On the disappointing side:
I still notice a vibration in the 55 - 65 mph that is not there at other speeds. The vibration is most obvious while speeding up or slowing down through that speed range. The vibration is reduced from what it was previously, but it is still noticeable. The vibration decreases, however, if the speed is held steady while at at 60 - 65 mph.

I'm just going to drive the car and not worry about it.

Maybe something easy like a wheel weight fell off. You could swap front to rear wheels and see if it changes. Free test.

Mine vibrates so bad I can't see anything in the rear view mirror. My strut bar rubbers are mostly missing, loose tie rod ends, need to check the u-joints... I have most of the front end rebuild parts on my bench.

It's all on my list, sadly when new items get added to the list, they are added to the top. Today it says, build cabinet doors for the built in book cases and China hutch. My home was built in 1913 and suffered from neglect for most of it's life. Oh, and I will be helping my 10 year old build a covered wagon model for her "Oregon Trail" unit at school. Fun stuff but little progress on the Falcon:)

[ew1usnr]

Maybe something easy like a wheel weight fell off. You could swap front to rear wheels and see if it changes. Free test.

I will be helping my 10 year old build a covered wagon model for her "Oregon Trail" unit at school. Fun stuff but little progress on the Falcon:)

Hello, Jeff.

Helping your ten year old is by far your most important project. I would like to see a photo of the covered wagon. :)

You are right. I was thinking that maybe the vibration could be related to either the tires or the wheels.

[dhbfaster]

Dennis, how old are your tires?

[ew1usnr]

Dennis, how old are your tires?

Hello, Don.

I bought a set of five Milestar P175/80R13 tires on 8/04/12 and have about 13,500 miles on them.

But, I didn't get a front end alignment until 4,000 miles ago and the front tires were badly worn on the inner edges. I then rotated the worn tires to the back. The tires are therefore not that old, but they are not in the best of shape either.

I hope to put maybe another 15,000 miles on these tires and then replace them with a set of bigger P185/80R13 tires.

****
Update: I read this post on a Mustang board. His situations sounds very similar to mine. The conclusions were that he needs an alignment, two new rear tires, and a wheel balance. I could buy one new P175/80R13 tire, and use it and the almost new spare to replace the two mis-worn rear tires, and keep the better of the two worn rear tires for a spare.

"My car. 2010 v6 vert with 72k miles.

Okay so I put new 19 inch wheels with the front tires brand new and the rears evenly warn but down but not yet to the wear bars. Before I put these wheels on the car had an alignment problem where the inner fronts were wearing slightly.

Well I put the 19 inch wheels with the tires on and the steering wheel wobbled at 60mph and disappeared at 70 mph and the car pulled left and right. (Note now that I installed new brakes but didn't turn rotors about 1,000 miles before all this)

So I thought to myself since I put the new wheels on "oh I just need my wheels balanced and aligned"
Took it to a famous shop the whole valley loves. this is what they said I need to fix the wheel shake and pulling left and right: Note below all this includes labor.

1. Front end alignment only ($110, really? Just for the front?)
2.Caster bolt kit, said that since my car was newer it requires a new kit.
3. Two new rear tires ($450 why? They wore evenly, they are on the rear, and have about 40 percent left. how would that effect the handling? I can get two new tires from Goodyear or perreli for $120 each)
4. New front brake pads and rotors. They said I needed new rotors as they looked worn, which I can agree, they should have been turned, but never had a vibration issue previously. New pads cause they would have to shave the "old" ones I just replaced to make them even with the new rotor so they said they might as well replace them?($525 for front. which is absurd. I can do all that including ceramics with new rotors all around myself for $180)
5. Brake fluid flush. I know what worn fluid looks like, mine is a light vegetable oil color, not like tea. Said my brakes pulsed and that will assist in the vibration when I brake (which is near non existent) ($110 for flush. Ouch)

So, basically, they said all this would fix my small vibration at 60 mph and my slight left and right pull."

[ew1usnr]

I have looked at 3 point seat belts but don't like the installation process on the hardtops. I did find this link for a so called 4 point belt. There are really only 3 points with four straps. What if any experience/knowledge does anyone have on this.
http://wescoperformance.stores.yahoo.net/4posebepubub.html

Hello, Larry.

That is what I installed. This approach has disadvantages. Putting shoulder belts in a hardtop is a challenge.

5472

A problem is that the seat back does not lock in place. If you lean forward against the straps the seat back wants to fold forward. I added other straps at the seat hinges to hold the seat backs in place:

5473

5474

Other Problems:
1. The structure of the seat is not strong and the seat back will break and bend in a crash.
2. The shoulder belts act as a cam. The occupant's forward motion is converted to a downward compression force.
3. The shoulder belts are uncomfortable wear. They are heavy and restrict torso movement. That makes it more difficult to look over your shoulder while backing up or changing lanes. This results in my most often just wearing the lap belt.

Alternatives:
This setup would look nice, but the metal that it anchors to is not very strong.

5475

This dealer-installed seat belt on a 1966 Fairlane used a novel approach: They drilled a hole in the roof and essentially used a big washer.

5476

[BadBird]

Dennis, As far as the Fairlane option. What the heck were they thinking??????

Where do your center straps hook up? Not sure from the pictures. Thanks Larry

[ew1usnr]

[SIZE=4]Dennis, As far as the Fairlane option. What the heck were they thinking??????
Where do your center straps hook up? Not sure from the pictures.

Hello, Larry.

I do not think that I could bring myself to go with the Fairlane option.

The shoulder straps come together in back as a "V" and then become a single strap:

5478

The single strap feeds into the center bracket on the floor. The ends of the lap belt feed into the right and left brackets:
5479

I added another bracket and strap on the right and left side to secure the seat hinges:
5480

I bought two shoulder harness sets for the front seat and two lap belts for the back seat from Andover Restraints.
See: http://www.andoauto.com/

Mt receipt says that I bought the "3 Point Seat Belts With Vintage Lift Lid Buckle" - "Custom Y" Harness #8814B
See: http://www.andoauto.com/3point.htm

[Luva65wagon]

5475

This dealer-installed seat belt on a 1966 Fairlane used a novel approach: They drilled a hole in the roof and essentially used a big washer.



Interesting. I had a set of those once, may still have in my pipes of stuff. Never knew what they were until now. Shoot - they may be worth a small fortune - I should find them.

[Luva65wagon]

I added another bracket and strap on the right and left side to secure the seat hinges:
5480


Dennis, This bracket really should be turned around and bent upward at about a 45 degree angle. Not that the seat has a lot of leverage (weight) until you strap yourself into the seat belt and drag it forward in an accident, God forbid, but this bracket is now prone to rather bend rather than hold the seat. It may, in fact, bend and in doing so work-harden and break off before the bolt through the floor holds the seat in place. Just an observation.

:rain:

[BadBird]

Dennis, I may be wrong, but with your engineering mind, you had to scratch your head when you saw that Fairlane option??? I think I could have found a better method when I used to drink.

Roger, if you have that setup, you will probably get a bunch for it. One born every minute from what I hear. :ROTFLMAO:

Larry

[dhbfaster]

Dennis, Why do you want to go to bigger (wider) tires? 175/80r13 seems like an almost perfect match to the original diameter. That's what I was planning to get for mine some day.

[Luva65wagon]

I think if the plates went through the rib in the roof that usually held the light socket in the center of the roof. That rib and the roof sandwiched with this chrome part on the roof would be about as good as anything I've seen them do early-on.

If I do find those parts, I will sell them for a bunch-o-money! :banana:

[ew1usnr]

Dennis, This bracket really should be turned around and bent upward at about a 45 degree angle.

Hello, Roger.

I cannot turn it around because the strap from the waist belt and the back of the seat are in the way. I understand, though, what you are saying about angling the bracket to decrease the twisting leverage.

I looked back at where I bought the flat belt anchor
5483

and see that they also have an angled one (on right).
5482

I do not have a bench vice and even if I had one this anchor may be hard to bend. It is, after all, deliberately made to be difficult to bend. It might be easier to just buy a set of the angled ones.

See: http://www.racereadyproducts.com/harness-mounting-hardware/crow-mounting-hardware/

[ew1usnr]

Dennis, Why do you want to go to bigger (wider) tires? 175/80r13 seems like an almost perfect match to the original diameter. That's what I was planning to get for mine some day.

Hello, Don.

I can't find my notes on this, but I think that the four-lug 13-inch wheels are six inches wide and so are the Milestar tires. They would be perfect for your wheels. The specifications for a Maxxis 175/80R13 say "Rim Width: 4.50 - 6.00".
See: https://www.cokertire.com/maxxis-175-80r13.html

But, ... the 5-lug 13-inch wheels that came with the V-8 cars are 6 1/2 inches wide. The Milestar 175's do work on my car, but the Maaxis MA-1 would be a better fit because they are specified for a 6.5-inch wide wheel.

The wheels used on the Sprint hardtop model are 6.5” x 13”.
The Maxxis MA-1 185/80R13 whitewall tire will fit 5” - 6.5" wide rims. “The Maxxis MA-1 is the perfect touring tire for almost any passenger car. With an attractive design and solid construction featuring double steel belts, solid center rib, advanced tread design to resist hydroplaning, and a stylish narrow (3/4”) white sidewall with serrated black sidewall.”
SKU: 700403, Tread Width: 5.40, Section Width: 7.40, Overall Diameter: 24.70, Load Index: 90, Speed Rating: S 112 mph, Max Load Capacity: 1323@35PSI, Rim Width: 5.00 - 6.50.
See: http://www.cokertire.com/maxxis-185-80r13.html Amazon has them for $104.89 each with free shipping

[Luva65wagon]

Dennis,

I figured you would have needed it to angle-up to clear the other belt to also allow turning it around. If you can get the angled one, I would.

I doubt they would harden the bracket (much) and it would bend. I also doubt they expected the pull would be in that orientation and never tested for this configuration.

No bench vice! :WHATTHE: I got one or two extra I could send you...

[dhbfaster]

Dennis, I have been looking at those. Tiresall.com has them for $69.:WHATTHE::rocker:
http://www.tiresall.com/Milestar-MS75-Tire-P175-80R13-86S-WW-A-S/1392/
I see now why you want bigger for your car.

[ew1usnr]

Dennis, I have been looking at those. Tiresall.com has them for $69

That's a good price. I paid $79.95 each about three and a half years ago. They have 1/2-inch wide whitewalls:

5484

I have 13,500 miles on the Milestars now and would like to put at least 25,000 on them before getting a new set of Maxxis tires.

[ew1usnr]

I figured you would have needed it to angle-up to clear the other belt to also allow turning it around. If you can get the angled one, I would.

Hello, Roger.

This is my e-mail exchange with Race Ready Products:

"The picture shows three different brackets with the part number 11549.
When placing an order, how do I specify that I want the angled on the right?
Thanks, Dennis."

"The bracket we can get now looks a little different. Michael Ceniceros"
5485

"That will work. What part number do I use to order it? Thanks, Dennis."

"We do not have the number on our site just yet. You can call us to place an order. These ends are same price as the others, $10 pair. Thank you,
-Mike."


No bench vice! :WHATTHE: I got one or two extra I could send you...

I don't have a work bench either! It's a problem. I usually turn a garbage can upside down and that is my work surface. :)

[ew1usnr]

I bought a set of five Milestar P175/80R13 tires on 8/04/12 and have about 13,500 miles on them. I hope to put maybe another 15,000 miles on these tires and then replace them with a set of bigger P185/80R13 tires.

Oh, well. I did not quite make another 15,000 miles. I drove the car to work this morning and had no problems. When I saw the car at lunch time the left rear tire was flat.
5489

My first impulse was to yell "Falcon down! Falcon down! Someone call 911!" :NERVOUS:

Then I remembered that I had a jack and a spare. The transmission was in park and I set the parking brake and jacked the back end up. The car was on a slight incline, it rolled back partly over the jack, and I had to disengage the jack and start over again. The right rear was locked in place by the transmission, but with the left rear wheel off the ground and the two front wheels free to roll, the car wanted to rotate around the single fixed point of the right rear wheel.

If you use the bumper jack to lift the back of the car, get a set of wheel chocks for the front tires. I stopped by Pep Boys auto parts on the way home and bought a pair for $6.75. "The RhinoGear Heavy Duty Wheel Chock is not your ordinary chock. These nestable chocks have extra support and a hard plastic grip which keeps your tires from sliding. Made in the U.S.A."
5492

Anyway, I got the flat tire off and replaced it with my spare that only has about 4,500 miles on it. I looked at the flat tire and didn't see any nails. I used an electric tire pump to inflate the tire to find where the leak was and found a ½-inch cut in the side wall. The tire cannot be repaired and needs to be replaced.
5490

5491

So, I looked on Amazon and found the same tire for $62.99 with free shipping.
See: http://www.amazon.com/1-New-Milestar-Season-Touring-Whitewall/dp/B0198009XU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1454725450&sr=8-1&keywords=MS775+P175

I will put the worn right rear tire in my trunk for the spare and replace it with this new tire.

[dhbfaster]

Bummer on the tire Dennis.....was it "cut" or was it actually split open (essentially dry rot)? I have been worried about buying lower volume tires (especially online) because their inventory might be old. Did you check the date code on the tire to see how old it is?

Here is a link in case you are not familiar with how to check it. I'm curious to know how old the new ones actually are too.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?gclid=CNT6_p3I48oCFc1ffgoda7UPkw&techid=11&s_kwcid=AL!3756!3!72454642093!e!!g!!tire%20date%20 code&ef_id=U7WyCwAABHT2bjFk:20160206163233:s

Also, could the tire possibly be covered under warranty?

[dhbfaster]

Actually....now that I open the pic full size on my iPad I see it was different than I thought.
Looks like a small side puncture. I can also see your tire date code is 0812 which is week 8 of the year 2012. Almost new tires! What a bummer.
Anyway, in case you don't have it, I did find their warranty and a place to register your new tires on their website.
http://www.tireco.com/warranty
http://www.tireco.com/registration/

[ew1usnr]

Did you check the date code on the tire to see how old it is?

Hello, Don.

I received the P175/80R13 M775 WSW Milestar All Season Touring SLE M+S rated tire that I ordered from Amazon six days ago. :)
Note: "A sidewall mark of M+S (or M/S, M&S, MS) means that you have an all-season tire that has been approved for use in mud and snow by the Rubber Manufacturer's Association (RMA)".

5501

The tire has a 3915 date code.

5502

Your reference said: "Since 2000, the week and year the tire was produced has been provided by the last four digits of the Tire Identification Number with the 2 digits being used to identify the week immediately preceding the 2 digits used to identify the year."

52 - 39 = 13 weeks of 2015 + 7 weeks of 2016 = a 20 week old tire. Wow!

The tire weighed 15.2 lbs on a bathroom scale.

[dhbfaster]

Nice! Fresh rubber. :shift::3g::3g:

[ew1usnr]

I still notice a vibration in the 55 - 65 mph range that is not there at other speeds.

Olin Mott tire shop says: "Is your vehicle vibrating at certain speeds, say, between 50 and 70 mph? If so, chances are your wheel is out of balance. Look for these signs, and if you find either one, come see us:
Scalloped, erratic wear pattern on tires.
Vibration in steering wheel, seat, or floorboard at certain speeds."

See: http://www.olinmott.com/service-description.htm?id=27345&name=wheel-balancing

They were describing my problem exactly. I went there yesterday to have my new tire mounted and had all five wheels balanced.

The bad news was that they said that the two left wheels were out of round.
The good news is now that the problem has been identified it can be fixed.

When they spun one of the the wheels I could visually see that it was not quite round. They recommended against moving the tires off those two wheels because the tires would have worn to the shape of the out of round wheel. They put the new tire on the wheel that was in the trunk and put it on the left front. The previous left front wheel went in the trunk, and the two rear wheels were swapped to opposite sides. This put two good wheels on the front, one bad wheel on the right rear farthest from the driver, and the other bad wheel in the trunk as a spare.

That made a big immediate improvement to the feel of the car. It is nice to drive without the steering wheel vibrating. :)

So, .... I need two good 13-inch 5-lug wheels. The February National Falcon magazine listed an ad from a guy in Colorado who has those wheels for $50 each. I just sent him a request and asked how much they will be with postage.

It will be fantastic if I can get this car to run vibration-free at highway speeds.

[ew1usnr]

It will be fantastic if I can get this car to run vibration-free at highway speeds.

The car had been shaking at between 55 and 65 mph.

I drove the car at 60 mph (dead center of the previous shake zone) and there was not any shaking. Yay!!

After balancing the wheels and putting two new tires on the front end, there was nothing to feel at 60 mph that was any different that at 50 mph.

The Wonder Falcon runs really nice now. Smooth and quiet at all speeds.

It took me 3 1/2 years of fiddling to get it to this point. :)

[dhbfaster]

Nice!,[yay]:shift:;:):banana::3g:

[ew1usnr]

Classic car slams into pole; driver hospitalized

5782

By: FOX 13 News staff
POSTED:JUL 20 2016 12:25PM EDT

INDIAN SHORES (FOX 13) - A crash involving a 50-year-old classic car is under investigation in Pinellas County.
Deputies say it was around 4 a.m. when Ronald Bartlett drove a 1966 Ford Fairlane into a utility pole on Gulf Boulevard in Indian Shores.
Bartlett, 54, suffered life-threatening injuries and was flown to Bayfront Medical Center.
Deputies aren’t sure why he ran into the pole.

See: http://www.fox13news.com/news/local-news/177060252-story

[Luva65wagon]

Non-collapsing steering column. You can see the steering wheel was impacted good.

He's way off the road - over a parking strip and sidewalk to get to that pole. Probably exhibition of speed, or fell asleep. Hope and pray he recovers.

Wonder if he's related to Don Bartlett? Don?

[ew1usnr]

I saw these on e-bay under "vintage photos Ford Falcon":

1962 Falcon - The driver was rescued by an heroic San Francisco police officer. He is approaching the driver's door in the right side of the photo. I am not sure, but the shape of the roof makes it look like it might be a Ranchero (see photo below). The back wheels look like they are shoved forward up to the back of the cab and it looks like the transmission (!!?) is sticking out sideways from under the hood. Yikes! A Ranchero is evidently safer in the event of a gas tank fire because the gas tank is under the bed and there is a steel bulkhead (and glass window) behind the front seat that separates the cab from the flaming gasoline from a ruptured gas tank. That might be why the driver in this case survived. In a Falcon sedan or coupe there is just a piece of cardboard and the back seat between the interior of the car and the gas tank, and the gas tank serves as the floor of the trunk.
5790

1962 Ranchero. Note shape of roof and position of rear window and rear wheels.

5791

The caption describes a rear end collision:
5789

A 1962 front-ender. The passenger compartment is intact. The lady inside looks OK.
5786

A 1962 Futura roll-over. The 1962 Falcons were not having much luck. This 1962 would be a two door sedan and have a center post that would have made the roof relatively stronger than that of a hardtop. The hardtops were introduced in mid-1963 and were available until 1965, I believe.
5787

A happier photo of a little girl on the hood of a 1960 Falcon:
5788