What was the original radiator?

[ew1usnr]

Did 1963 Falcons with a V-8s originally come with two row radiators?

I read that 1964 Mustangs with V-8s originally came with two row radiators and that three row radiators were recommended as a replacement for additional cooling.

I ask because I currently have a three-row with a one-inch fan spacer that gives me a one-inch clearance from the radiator.

But .... it appears that the car originally used a two-inch fan spacer and that means that the original radiator
had to have been one inch thinner that what I currently have.

[Luva65wagon]

There is a lot more room between a radiator and fan (technically I mean water pump) in a Mustang.

I'm not sure what a '63 came with. My guess is you could have maybe spec'd it with a heavy radiator, but if that were the case there would have been a part number for it. Finding that parts drawing, like you did for the transmission mount, would probably show it if it existed.

Also, I was digging in the loft for something and came across my bag-o-tranny-mount parts and I actually have a spring with the extra s-bracket... but all the bolts in the bag were the same. :confused: So not sure if I'll be able to help much on that one.

[ew1usnr]

I want to change my radiator.

Question: When I unplug the transmission lines from the bottom of the radiator, will transmission fluid gravity flow from the transmission and start flowing out the lines?

Or, is the fluid pumped through the cooling lines by a pump inside the transmission? Meaning that fluid will not begin pouring out of the transmission when I unhook the cooling lines (unless I start the engine).

I put a rebuilt three row radiator in my car 2 1/2 years ago and it has been a lemon. I have had it out twice already to have leaks repaired and it started leaking again. Plus, the last time it was worked on, they told me that six of the tubes were plugged with solder and could not be cleared.

Rather than having it repaired for a third time, I decided to replace it and ordered another radiator this past Tuesday. If it is delivered today or tomorrow I can install it this weekend.

I ordered the following from Advance Auto Parts: a Carquest or ToughOne Radiator, Part No. 433259, Product Application: 1963 Ford Falcon - Exact fit for this vehicle. See: http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/carquest-or-toughone-radiator-433259/5893720-P# Specifications: Core height 17 ¼”, Core thickness 2”, Core width 16 3/8”, Inlet top right 1 ½”, Outlet bottom right 1 ¾”, Three rows, Transmission cooler, Tube size 2. Price: $137.99 - $20.70 with 15% off code C521+ free shipping = $117.29.

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[Jeff W]

In my experience, only a tiny bit dribbles out of the lines when disconnected. You will want to put some cardboard down to catch the drips (it drips out of the radiator tank as well).

Check the transmission fluid level when all is swapped over and pumped full. It must be a tiny tank in the radiator as I have never seen much of a drop in level after loosing the amount stored in the radiator tank. I would like to open one up some day and have a look. :sawzall:

[Norm1]

Ordered one. Great deal.

Their fitment chart is incomplete as it does not show my 65 Rancher0. Oreilly's does and has the same part #.

Yes, you will only get a few drops from the trans. cooler. don't know how much is left in the cooler but will find out soon.

[ew1usnr]

Check the transmission fluid level when all is swapped over and pumped full.

The installation of the new radiator went well and without any surprises and without making too big of a mess.
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It was a little bit more complicated because I have a coolant overflow tank and an auxiliary transmission cooler in front of the radiator, but everything went back together OK.
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I started the car and didn't see any obvious leaks and then took it on a 21-mile test drive. I checked the transmission fluid level with the car warm, running, and in Park and it was at mid-range between the Low and Full marks. The air temperature was 60° and the temperature gauge stayed at one-quarter. The ThermoCap read 140° when we came back home.
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The radiator did not get hot enough to expand fluid into the overflow tank. The transmission temperature stayed below 160°.
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Everything stayed cool. The temperatures will be back in the upper 80's this coming week and the real test will be to see how hot it gets in the stop and go traffic on the way home from work.

Note: The radiator delivery box said Carquest, Made in China. Distributed by CQ Sourcing, Inc., 4721 Hargrove Road, Raleigh, NC 27616. CARQUEST Auto Parts is owned and operated by Advance Auto Parts, Inc., the largest automotive aftermarket parts provider in North America. The Advance Auto review site calls it a Ready-Rad radiator, which seems to be the same as Vista-Pro, Go/Dan, Heatbuster, and Proliance. They are all owned by Centrum Equities Acquisition. See: https://trademarks.justia.com/owners/centrum-equities-acquisition-llc-193508/

I asked if the radiator was new or re-manufactured:
Thank you for choosing Advance Auto Parts. A representative will be with you shortly. Thank you for holding.
Thank you for chatting with Advance Auto Parts and Batteries. You are now chatting with Marge. How may I assist you today?
Marge: Hello! How may I help you today?
You: Hello, is the radiator Part No. 433259 a new part or a re-manufactured part?
Marge: I understand your request. I'll do my best to help you out today.
Marge: May I have your name, please?
You: Dennis.
Marge: Good morning Dennis.
Marge: This is a new radiator.

[Norm1]

I installed my radiator and then did a clearance check.

The fan would have hit my transmission cooling lines.

Had to drill new mounting holes to lower the rad. and give an 1/8" of clearance.

Always measure and double check for this universal /fits many crap.

[ew1usnr]

I installed my radiator and then did a clearance check.
The fan would have hit my transmission cooling lines. Had to drill new mounting holes to lower the rad. and give an 1/8" of clearance. Always measure and double check for this universal /fits many crap.

Hello, Norm.

I ran into the same thing. I could not lower the radiator by any significant amount, so I downsized from a 17" fan to a smaller 16 1/4" fan blade (the one with red tips) that I bought off e-bay. The change in diameter seems to be due to going from a round tip to a flat tip and probably does not change the volume of air moved by much (I think).

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The smaller fan gives 5/8" clearance from the lower radiator hose and transmission lines. I used a one-inch spacer to get a one-inch clearance between the fan and radiator.

I use a "ThermoCap" to monitor the temperature of the radiator.

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My old radiator would measure 210 degrees when I came home from work and the new radiator has been reading 180 degrees. The dashboard temperature gauge stays more at mid range while in stop and go traffic, where it tended to move to three-quarters with the old radiator. I have been happy with the new radiator.

Dennis.

[dhbfaster]

Nice install Dennis. I really like that thermo cap. I've never seen one of those.
Those Fomoco logo hoses are really nice too. Where did you find those?

[ew1usnr]

Nice install Dennis. I really like that thermo cap. I've never seen one of those.
Those Fomoco logo hoses are really nice too. Where did you find those?

Hello, Don.

I ordered those from Mac’s Antique Auto Parts:

Radiator hose set – Script type – 260 & 289 V8 Falcon Part #: 41-18532-1 $34.95

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See: http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_falcon_mercury_comet/radiator-hose-set-script-type-260-and-289-v8-falcon.html

Your little red "Volkswagen Fighter" Falcon is going to be fantastic when you get it back together. I am amazed at the amount of attention to detail that you have put into the rebuild and I really like how you are keeping everything original.

Dennis.

[dhbfaster]

Thanks Dennis....I think you need to drive out to the Mini show here this year to see it...and meet everyone. :rocker:

[ew1usnr]

I installed my radiator and then did a clearance check.
The fan would have hit my transmission cooling lines.

Hello, Norm.

I need to add another note about the transmission cooler - it may not be adequate.

The Fordomatic for the 144 ThriftPower engines was air cooled and they worked with no problem.
The Fordomatic for the 170 Special engines was air cooled plus it had liquid cooling lines to the radiator. That worked great.

Then Ford had one of their "Better Ideas" and the Fordomatic for the 260 Challenger V-8 was liquid cooled only.
Why? Why did Ford eliminate probably more than half of the transmission cooling when they went to a larger engine?
A mechanical engineer friend of mine at work said that maybe they did it to make the car quieter because air cooled transmissions made a sound. Hmmm.

Anyway, the space between the transmission lines on the replacement radiator is six inches. In between them is six-inch long concentric tube transmission cooler. Here is a picture of a similar (but probably longer) concentric tube cooler from a 1998 Honda Accord:

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Maybe the original Ford radiator had a larger tube, but for with the new radiators and a V-8 Fordomatic, the only cooling that is being provided is from a six-inch tube that sits in a bath of 200 degree coolant. Transmission fluid should not exceed 175 degrees. The cooler on the radiator is just not sufficient.

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I suspected that my transmission was overheating on long trips and had a mechanic add a transmission temperature gauge sensor on the line coming off the torque converter. That is the point at which the transmission fluid is hottest. This let me see what was going on and it confirmed that the transmission was getting way too hot.
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Then I added an over-sized (*see below) auxiliary transmission cooler in front of my radiator and now the transmission temperature stays at 160 degrees and it should run forever. Ford (in my opinion) really should have retained the air cooling feature on the V-8 Fordomatics.

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*Hayden Automotive "Made in Australia" (Yay!) #678 Rapid-Cool Plate and Fin auxiliary transmission fluid cooler, 11 in. x 9.5 in. x 0.75 in. (104.5 sq. in). “This is a premium style transmission cooler kit. Coolers are a compact plate and fin design. 19 millimeter thick-hose barb fittings offer secure attachment. All rapid coolers include the patented “Flow path design” which increases heat transfer while minimizing pressure drop.” The Plate and Fin Transmission Cooler is 33% smaller than comparable tube and fin designs. This unit is sized for pick-up trucks and vans, class "C" motor homes, travel trailers to 24 feet, and GVWR up to 24,000 pounds, towing up to 5,000 pounds.

[Norm1]

I won't be going on medium/long trips, just local.

[ew1usnr]

4936
I installed my radiator and then did a clearance check.
The fan would have hit my transmission cooling lines. Had to drill new mounting holes to lower the rad. and give an 1/8" of clearance. Always measure and double check for this universal /fits many crap.

I had initially used the bolt holes that came with the radiator and installed a 16.25" fan to give adequate clearance from the transmission cooler lines. But ...., in stop and go traffic my temperature gauge would creep up.

I took the radiator out and drilled and filed to extend the mounting holes about 1/2-inch higher. I laid 1/16” plastic strips as spacers on the cross member below and lowered the new radiator into place. I pushed the radiator down to the tops of the new drilled bolt holes and bolted it in place. I had to remove the right horn to reach the lower right radiator support bolt. The radiator was lowered as much as it can be without touching the cross member and a credit card can be slid between it and the base of the radiator. The bottom of the radiator is really close to the cross member but is not touching. The radiator was moved down about ½” and that provided a sufficient 3/8” clearance between the tips of of a 17 1/2" fan and the transmission lines to allow its installation.

This shows the previously installed 16 1/4" fan:
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Here is the re-positioned radiator and the newly installed 17 1/2" fan. It gives better coverage of the radiator:
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The newly installed 17 ½” provides a 16% larger area (18% larger effective area when subtracting the 4.5” diameter hub) than the 16 ¼” fan. The 17 ½” fan was used on 1967 Mustangs with 289 engines and should be more than sufficient for a 260.

[ew1usnr]

After I had installed the 17.5-inch fan, I wished that I had painted it.

Before:
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So, I took the fan out, sanded, primed, and sprayed it with satin black Rust-Oleum engine paint. Then, while I was at it, I painted the tips red to make my Falcon look like a fighter plane. I had at first tried spraying the tips with Dupli-Color Ford Red engine paint to match my valve covers, but it dissolved the base black paint. I sanded the tips off one more time and then painted the tips with water based gloss red latex enamel.
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The red tips make the fan visible while it is whirling around:
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I tried waving a tissue paper in front of the engine while it was idling to get an idea of how much air was being drawn through the radiator. It seems like quite a lot. I could let go of the tissue and it would get sucked up against the front surface of the radiator.

[SmithKid]

I had just left my fan black, too (lazy and eager to get it running). From your experience, I think I'll paint the tips too. With my engine being blue, I've been thinking of maybe an electric blue of some hue. Whadya think?

[Luva65wagon]

You'd be amazed how just a 1/4" line near the tip gives the same effect, without the full 4" of tip being painted.

I also just try to keep my fingers away while it's running - just as a general practice. [thumb]

[ew1usnr]

I had just left my fan black, too (lazy and eager to get it running). From your experience, I think I'll paint the tips too. With my engine being blue, I've been thinking of maybe an electric blue of some hue. Whadya think?

Hello, Gene.

I would use a light-colored blue so that it shows up well. If you are just painting the tips, you might be able to paint them without removing the fan.

When I thought about a blue propeller, the the first thing that came to mind was the BMW logo:
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But, it turns out that the BMW logo actually does not represent a spinning propeller.
See: http://www.leftlanenews.com/living-a-lie-bmw-logo-not-based-on-spinning-propeller.html

"You'd be amazed how just a 1/4" line near the tip gives the same effect, without the full 4" of tip being painted."

I wish now that I had included a yellow stripe behind my red one:
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[ew1usnr]

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It was a little bit more complicated because I have a coolant overflow tank and an auxiliary transmission cooler in front of the radiator, but everything went back together OK.

Uhhh, ... I am going to make another improvement.

The coolant expansion tank that I have been using for the past couple of years came from Mac's auto parts and was listed as being for a 1963 Falcon. It measured 2" x 12" and holds 20 oz of coolant.

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The trouble with the 20 oz tank was that it was not big enough. When the full radiator got hot, the coolant would expand and overflow from the tank. When the radiator cooled back down it was no longer full.

Yesterday morning I saw a 3" x 12" coolant expansion tank that holds 45 oz of coolant. Oooooh ....
See: http://www.amazon.com/Speedmaster-PCE188-1009-Overflow-Tanks-Recovery/dp/B00SYFU2B0

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This should work nicely. It will allow the radiator coolant to expand without overflowing. That way, the radiator will stay full when it cools. That will allow the radiator to function at maximum coolant capacity and cooling efficiency.

On an unrelated note: My steering wheel had begun squeaking when the wheel was moved back and forth. This afternoon I sprayed some WD-40 into the narrow separation between the steering wheel base and the turn-signal hub using the soda straw applicator. The squeaking disappeared. Yaaay!

[Luva65wagon]

So, Dennis - are you actually expelling more than 20 OZ of coolant when your motor gets hot and it is spewing onto the ground as a result? Or were you saying it wasn't sucking it back when it cooled? What radiator cap pressure are you using? Looks like one of those thermometer caps from the picture. Just curious more than anything what the condition actually is.

[ew1usnr]

So, Dennis - are you actually expelling more than 20 OZ of coolant when your motor gets hot and it is spewing onto the ground as a result? Or were you saying it wasn't sucking it back when it cooled? What radiator cap pressure are you using? Looks like one of those thermometer caps from the picture. Just curious more than anything what the condition actually is.

Hello, Roger.

No, the fluid expands and then it goes back down when it cools.
The problem is that when it expands it expands more than the 20 oz volume of the expansion tank. Anything in excess of 20 oz overlows the expansion tank

When the radiator cools off it sucks the remaining 20 oz back into the radiator, minus whatever overflowed from the expansion tank.

I am not talking about a huge amount of overflow. Maybe no more than a cup full (8 oz). If I had a bigger expansion tank there would be no overflow. The fluid would heat and expand and flow into the expansion tank, and then cool and contract and flow back into the radiator.

[Luva65wagon]

Thanks Dennis. What pressure cap are you using?

[ew1usnr]

Thanks Dennis. What pressure cap are you using?

Hello, Roger.

I am using a 13 psi ThermoCap.

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I bought it about a year ago. New Made in China Mr. Gasket 2470S Domestic ThermoCap 13 PSI-SLVR from Amazon for $17.27 with free postage. "Combines a pressurized radiator cap with a thermometer element that eliminates potentially dangerous guesswork."

[Luva65wagon]

Looks similar to what I installed - probably is. I can't remember what pressure I went with.

It's been a while since I looked into all of this, but it prompts me to look into the whole pressure rating versus coolant temperature - and how we survived before expansion/coolant recovery tanks - topic. Seems to me you use a lower pressure cap for a expansion system and higher when they were not used. But it's fuzzy - up there.

[ew1usnr]

It's been a while since I looked into all of this, but it prompts me to look into the whole pressure rating versus coolant temperature - and how we survived before expansion/coolant recovery tanks - topic. Seems to me you use a lower pressure cap for a expansion system and higher when they were not used.

Hello, Roger.

Since you asked: :)

My 1963 V-8 Falcon uses a 13 psi cap as its stock, original equipment cap.
The boiling point of a 50/50 mixture of antifreeze and water is calculated by assuming that the non-pressurized boiling point is 223°, and that each pound of pressure raises the boiling point by 3.25°. 223°+13*3.25° = 265°.
The radiator boiling point with a 13 psi cap = 265°.

For a radiator without an auxiliary coolant expansion tank, you do not fill the radiator completely full. You just add enough coolant to cover the tubes and leave head space in the top tank of the radiator. When the fluid gets hot it expands into that head space.

The advantage of an auxiliary expansion tank is that it allows the radiator to be filled completely full. When the coolant gets hot it expands into the auxiliary tank and then it goes back to the radiator when it cools. Having the radiator completely full all the time makes the radiator more effective because it contains more coolant and does not allow air bubbles to circulate through the cooling circuit.

[Luva65wagon]

Thanks Dennis - Feel gooder knowing that I knew all of that. I guess the fuzzy part was what they used to determine the pressure of a particular system. Why isn't there 15 lbs caps, or 18 lb caps on every car? Balance between the pressure the system can take and the temperatures they want to hold to.

That's what I'm looking at. Probably not an easy research thing, but I see some pages where they are suggesting an 18 lb cap, which might exceed the working pressure of a particular system. If something were to blow (other than the cap), what would that be?

[dhbfaster]

I also found this quite interesting!
How do I know I have the right psi cap for my falcon?
(Darn...I'm not near my books any more.)
I should probably let a little fluid out of my tank....I think I filled it to the top.

[SmithKid]

I have the smaller recovery tank on mine with no overflow problems. I do have a 3-core radiator though, and that may be the reason.

Also, I tried brightening up my fan with blue (experimented with blue tape), and found it wasn't as bright as I liked. Today I purchased some fluorescent yellow at our local Home Depot. I'll do the tips with that and post the results reeaall soon now (maybe real soon this fall).

[SmithKid]

I got my fan tips painted today. They are definitely more visible now. Thanks for the idea, Dennis. I suspect that I'll install a shroud sometime in the future.

[ew1usnr]

I got my fan tips painted today. They are definitely more visible now. Thanks for the idea, Dennis.

Hello, Gene.

You might be thanking me too soon. I painted my blade tips with latex paint so that the red paint would not dissolve the black engine paint that was used to paint the fan. Well ......

The paint on the front of the blades has held up great:

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But the vacuum at the back of the blade tips was powerful enough to suck the paint right off. Wow!

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We will have to see how yours holds up. What kind of paint did you use?

[ew1usnr]

Yesterday morning I saw a 3" x 12" coolant expansion tank that holds 45 oz of coolant. Oooooh ....
See: http://www.amazon.com/Speedmaster-PCE188-1009-Overflow-Tanks-Recovery/dp/B00SYFU2B0

Well, this stinks.

I received my big expansion tank today, but ... the top of the internal overflow tube ends ends 2.25 inches below the top of the tank.

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That is two inches lower than it should be. That means that this tank only holds 33 oz before overflowing, not the advertised 45 oz. The return policy says that I pay the return postage plus a 20% re-stocking fee. Before doing that, I e-mailed Speedmaster and asked "Are all of these tanks made the same way? I would like to get a correctly made unit, but it would not do me any good to return this one if you send me another incorrect unit just like it."

I suppose that I could try to push a two-inch piece of rubber hose onto the overflow tube and it would correct the deficiency, but I should not have to do that. Dang it.

Here is my math to calculate the actual volume:
The barrel of the tank measures 10 3/4". The internal overflow tube ends 2 1/4" below the top of the tank, so the tube is 8 1/2" long. Area = pi * R squared = 3.14 * (1.5" * 1.5") = 7.07 sq in. 7.07 sq in * 8.5" = 60.1 cu in * (1 pint /28.875 cu in) = 2.08 pints. The actual volume of the tank is 2.08 pint *(16 oz/pint) = 33.28 oz, not the advertised 45 oz. The missing 2" of overflow tube = 0.49 pints, or 8 oz.

[dhbfaster]

Hum mm....did you ask them if you just return it for a bigger size?
I would think they would swap it out for you at least without the restocking fee. They should want to protect their feedback rating on Amazon if nothing else.

[ew1usnr]

Hum mm....did you ask them if you just return it for a bigger size?

I plugged a piece of 1/4" tubing onto the short internal overflow tube and used a razor blade to cut the tubing off near the top of the tank. This raised the internal overflow height by about 2 1/4" inches and increased the effective tank capacity from 33 oz to 41 oz, by my calculations.

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The larger expansion tank installed with no problems other than I had to drill one new mounting hole in the radiator frame.

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The new tank does not interfere with closing the hood so it looks like the Falcon is good to go.

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[ew1usnr]

I was out of antifreeze and needed some to top off my radiator. The last antifreeze I bought was labeled "Universal" and was yellow colored.

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Probably over-thinking things as I tend to do, I read about coolant on the internet. Here is a summary of what I found:
"The original green coolant is called Group 1 and contains quick-acting silicate and phosphate corrosion inhibitors for both iron and aluminum surfaces. Group 1 (green) coolant has a short life and must be changed every other year but is less expensive and works better with brass/copper radiators and heater cores. Group 2 (yellow) coolant is recommended for aluminum engines and radiators. It does not contain silicates or phosphates and can be changed at 150,000 if it is not mixed Group 1 coolant."

Since I have an iron block and heads and a brass radiator and heater core it seemed like the original green coolant would be best. I bought a jug of this "Conventional Green" coolant at O'Reilly's auto parts for $12.99. The label says that it is for "Ford pre-2002 and most vehicles pre-1980". That includes my Falcon. Yes, mixing the green coolant with the yellow would shorten the yellow's 150,000 mile life, but it had probably already been mixed with some other fluid that had been in the radiator anyway.

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I bought a jug of distilled water at the grocery store to mix with the new jug of straight antifreeze.