Engine removal planning

[dhbfaster]

Not quite to the stage of engine removal yet...but, the rear axle and suspension is off now (have a welder coming tomorrow to cut out the section in the trunk that needs to be fixed), I'm thinking about going ahead and removing the front suspension (evening work)- which then leads to might-as-well just do all the under car work (rust removal and painting-weekend work) at the same time instead of work back to front in stages as I originally planned. But if I do it all at the same time- might as well remove the engine, but with the car completely on jacks...can't move it any more. How much room do I need to make sure to eave in front of the car in order to be able to have enough space to remove the engine?


Thanks

[BadBird]

If using a cherry picker to remove the engine it takes quite a bit of room, I would guess around 8-10 feet would be enough. I turned my car around so the front was at the garage door area because I didn't have enough room at the front of my garage.
I used furniture movers from harbor freight under the front crossmember to turn the car on and had the metal supports with wheels under the rear tires so I could rotate the car around. Sounds hokey but it worked.

http://www.harborfreight.com/2-piece-vehicle-dollies-67511.html

http://www.harborfreight.com/material-handling/dollies/movers-dolly-93888.html

[doghows]

Hey Don I have a set of 4 of those dolly's, you are welcome to use them if you don't want to buy any. They worked great for my 5 year job.

[dhbfaster]

Hey everyone- a related question- on TV...it seems like the tranny often comes out with the engine--is there any problem (or extra hassle) taking out the tranny from the bottom so I can take care of that first and get better access to paint the bottom in that area? or is it just easier to cherry pick it out from the top attached to the motor?

[falcon cobra]

I have done it both ways and it really don't matter which ever you prefer. I took my motor and trans [c4] out last time and didn't even need to remove the hood......ps don't worry about the bolts just put some oil on them and screw them in....jh

[Luva65wagon]

Don,

I missed this the first time around, but FYI Gene and I pulled the motor out of my wagon last night with only about 5 feet of space in front of it, if that. Granted this was without the transmission, which would add a little bit, but it is possible to pull a motor with however long the hoist legs are, plus a little.

If the transmission is going to come out anyway, gravity works in your favor. Drop it first and then pull the engine. You wont pour so much oil out on the ground.

As for installing the transmission for insertion, it's far easier to get everything aligned out in the open rather than lying on your back.

Using an engine leveler on the hoist helps change the tilt while pulling or installing, so either way you go - use one of those.

Install everything dry, and then add oil.

For what it is worth, you may be looking at this as another while I'm at it thing, but really, the amount of time it takes to pull a Falcon motor as opposed to working in and around all the stuff you leave in - far and away makes the time pulling it all a no-brainer. The end-result will be better as well.

[dhbfaster]

Thanks everyone...very helpful. [BOW] Turns out I have about 4 feet at the moment, but I'll take the tranny out, then do all the bottom paint, suspension, fender wells, etc..then put the wheels back on before the engine come out. With the wheels back on I can easily roll the car back 5-6 feet or more with the garage door open. When the engine is out...I plan to do everything that makes sense to do to it while I'm at it.

[dhbfaster]

Ok, everything disconnected, bolts loose and ready to pull the 3 speed manual tranny...
Just want to make sure, but it looks like the best way is to take it out separate from the bell housing and let the bell housing stay on the engine and come out with the engine?
AND...to take out the tranny,
After disconnecting everything attached to it-
1: Take out the two bolts on the rear bracket
2: Take out the four bolts on the front of the tranny (while supporting the tranny)
and it comes out?
Seems almost too simple...just want help fromt the advisory board to make sure. :NERVOUS:

[doghows]

I've always pulled the bell housing with the transmission. Pulling the trans without bell housing runs into clutch fork problems. When installing it it is a pain to get the transmission input shaft to go through the throw out bearing without knocking it all out of whack.
With the bell housing left on the trans, you can install the clutch fork, throw out bearing and then all you line up is the bell housing bolts, and transmission input shaft into the pilot bearing.
Just my 2 cents worth, it basically come down to preference. Six one way half a dozen another.

[dhbfaster]

Ok, the top bolts on the bell housing seem to be much more difficult to get to.
But if I take those off I can then slip off the whole tranny with the bell housing?

[doghows]

That is how I pull them. Clutch linkage shift linkage bell housing bolts starter. Support it pull the crossmember and pull.

[dhbfaster]

Got it! Thanks Steve.:rocker:

[dhbfaster]

Finally! [yay] Suspension is back on and it's time to get the engine out.
Are there a couple people available with a hoist that can help me?
Anytime Next weekend Saturday or Sunday nov 8 or 9 would be ideal for me, and the next weekend nov 15 or 16 is also good.

[SmithKid]

Don, actually next Sat/Sun is 8th & 9th. I'd be available Sat. the 8th or the following weekend (Sat the 15th). I currently have Roger's hoist in my garage and I bet he wouldn't mind if we use it. Do you have an engine stand? I have mine sitting idle in storage and you could use it.
Gene

[dhbfaster]

Gene, that would be fantastic. :D
I just realized my son is gone the weekend of the 8th and he wants to be a part of this, so Saturday morning the 15th would be great.
I don't have an engine stand...so to be able to borrow yours would be great too.
I also need to get the block shrink wrapped and onto a pallet for shipping to the engine rebuild place after I remove everything from it. I'm thinking I can go ahead and remove most everything while it's still in the car and then we can shrink wrap it after it's pulled and take it directly to the pallet?
Then supposedly I'll have it back in a couple weeks- at which time I need to get it on to the stand.

[Luva65wagon]

Don - per Gene, of course you are welcome to use my hoist.

It's not a 3 or 4 person job to pull a motor this size (I've pulled and installed many, much bigger, all by my lonesome), so I think if you have 2 or 3 people there, you'll have it out in less than 30 minutes - tops. I'm burning the candle at both ends and the middle, but could accompany Gene just to keep him company and help haul the hoist. Would be worth it to see your progress at the very least.

[SmithKid]

OK Don, consider yourself "penciled in" on my calendar. Of course, Roger is always welcome to come along with me and greatly appreciated. Please remind me as we approach that day, to bring hoist and stand.

[dhbfaster]

Sounds great guys.... (thanks Roger) I don't think there's room in my garage for more than 4 or so around the front of the car anyway. My son will also be there, and I have full confidence it will come out with Gene's mentoring, but on the other hand Roger if you have time to head over and make an appearance, I'll have fun showing off what I've done so far and probably have a list of 50 questions I'll be hitting you and Gene with while you're looking at the car, so that would be great, but if you can't make it, I completely understand. Gene...I'll ding you in a week or so and again before that Saturday. I'm really looking forward to this..:rocker:

[dhbfaster]

And...the heart of the Falcon is out....huge thanks to Gene for your mentorship and assistance and the stand, and thanks to Roger for the mentorship by phone and use of the hoist... [thumb][yay]

[Luva65wagon]

Looks like I missed out on some fun. Having plenty of my own here though. Sorry I missed it, but glad I was able to help, albeit by phone.

[dhbfaster]

Anyone know a source for new 040 oversize pistons for the 144?

[doghows]

Crap how did I miss this thread?? Guess I've been swamped lately. Glad it all went well.
Gene you didn't offer to pick me up?:o just kidding, sorry I missed it.

[dhbfaster]

No problem Steve...are you planning to head over this way any time in the next few weeks? I'll have some stuff for you.

[SmithKid]

Glad to have helped Don, and thanks to your son, also. By the way, Don had the engine almost totally ready to lift. Don and Jason pulled the Z-bar after I arrived, we hooked up (with Roger's fone assistance), and lifted. Voila!

[doghows]

No I'm pretty well land locked over here. Adding another 1500sqft to my business and the work is overflowing right now. Working 14hr days 6 days a week. So the one day I get off right now I pretty much sleep. :D

[dhbfaster]

Whoa...no wonder you're feeling old! Working hard expanding and making (and spending) the bucks will do it..:rocker:
No problem, I'll take to a local guy then. I won't have time to get there before xmas. If anyone is going over however....let me know.

[Luva65wagon]

No I'm pretty well land locked over here. Adding another 1500sqft to my business and the work is overflowing right now. Working 14hr days 6 days a week. So the one day I get off right now I pretty much sleep. :D

Post some pictures of your expansion! I think we are all excited to see what's happening over there.

[dhbfaster]

I'm supposed to send the engine rebuilder the block and the head with only the internal stuff on it...without all the tin and external stuff...I assume that means I should take off the crank case vent tube?

I'd appreciate some quick advice on how this thing comes off... I didn't see anything in the manual about it. I gave it a tug with my hand and it's tight...but I haven't tried the rubber mallet yet.

I need to get this thing on a pallet tomorrow.

Thanks as always...[BOW]

[redfalken]

I'm pretty sure it's just a tight fit. It should twist and wiggle out. You might be able to get a stiff putty knife or something under that lip that goes against the block and pry as you wiggle. Some penetrating oil may help.

I don't think there's a pin or set screw holding it in and it looks like you've removed the lower bracket bolt already.

[Jeff W]

Mine was only held on by the one bolt (you already have that off as I see the tab) and the pressure fit of the tube in the hole. It has been a while but I think I wriggled it back and forth while pulling up and it slowly worked its way out. I would be gentle with a mallet as I have seen them bashed up... it is pretty thin walled tube.

I can't remember if the tube had an Oring seal on it or not. I know the Californian smog deal I removed did.

[dhbfaster]

Soaked it in penetrating oil per your advice and off it came this morning with a reasonable hand whack to it. Thanks as always! [BOW]
Any recommendations on what adhesive to use when I put it back on?

[Jeff W]

I didn't use any product to seal when reinstalling. It probably wouldn't hurt to use a little gasket sealer on the tube before inserting. I wouldn't smear it in the hole as you don't want extra to get pushed into the engine... probably.

I just check my manual and also could not find mention of sealant. Interestingly in section 4-1 here is a pretty good description of how the Vent Tube works. It actually depends on the motion of the car causing a partial vacuum in the tube and this pulls inside air out, with fresh air being drawn in through the filtered filler cap in the valve cover. Since the air is being sucked out through that tube rather than the internal pressure on the engine pushing it out, there may be little need for sealant in that area. That is unless your rings are worn or you do a lit of idling.

They even have a little diagram with arrows showing the flow or air through a cross section of the engine.

Glad the tube came out.

[Luva65wagon]

New, it was pretty tight. You would do well to apply s bead of silicone gasket adhesive when putting it back in. It should be sealed enough to keep it from oozing internal oil fumage.

[dhbfaster]

Got it. It is pretty interesting how that vent system actually works. So many things like this were so simple back then. The wind guard on the carb also amazes me..

Next question!
I had my son take a few pictures (Attached) of the numbers on the side of the block AFTER I already had it on the pallet (while I held the block up [don't worry his head was not under there]). Then when I looked at the pictures later, I noticed the fitting for the oil dipstick is still on the block. Is this something I should have removed and need to worry about getting back from the engine guys? If so, I better give them a heads up.

The engine is still here but it would be a job getting to that at some point.

[Luva65wagon]

Don, I'd leave them. A machine shop should have no problem cleaning and reconditioning the motor with those on there.

I wonder when the last time someone lifted that oiler cap and squirted oil in there?...

[Luva65wagon]

Oops, never mind. The second picture looked like one of those oil fillers with the spring-loaded cap. Upon a second look I see it is the same dipstick tube... just fuzzier. :rolleyes:

[dhbfaster]

Yep, it's the dipstick tube. The inside of the engine looked amazingly good and clean I thought-it almost made me 2nd guess myself on the rebuild. Not much sludge at the bottom or anywhere. There was one broken plastic piece inside the bottom of the oil pan...almost looked like a rectangular plastic grommet broken into pieces. No idea where it would have come from.

[dhbfaster]

Looks like my block is already done and will be back next week!
It's supposed to come back rust free and with a primer painted on it.
Any thoughts about what brand of engine paint to go with or to stay away from?
I have a can of the correct color duplicolor engine paint...anyone used that stuff?

[doghows]

That's perfect let it fly. And show us of course!

[Luva65wagon]

I use Duplicolor 99% of the time. It's been very consistent and durable.

That said I've not found any brand of "High Heat" paint to survive anything high heat, like exhaust manifolds. Even high-dollar Eastwood stuff. They all look good for the initial photograph, but then quickly burn away in normal use.

[dhbfaster]

Looks like Duplicolor is it.
Speaking of the manifold...I recall Kenny's challenges and him going to ceramic...but I think it was $200 or so? Has anybody ever tried the POR stuff? http://www.por15.com/HIGH-TEMP_p_104.html $25 for a can.
It says it can handle 1200 degrees. (Painted on a freshly media blasted surface.)

[Luva65wagon]

I have. Looks good for a little while. Even high-heat paint good for 1400 degrees (both Duplicolor and VHT brands have been tried by me) looks good for a while. Finally paid to have them ceramic coated and no regrets so far. Knock on wood.

[dhbfaster]

OK, thanks for the warning. Do you know if the stock color for the exhaust manifold flat black? I might get a chance to take this thing over to Auburn Performance coatings this week and see what they charge. I don't see anything about the color of these on the falcon rules page.

[Luva65wagon]

The stock exhaust manifold was plain cast iron. Nothing painted. They may have painted the motor with the manifold attached, but the paint burned off before anyone took delivery. It's only us-guys into auto restoration want the forever good-looking manifold. For that... business's have emerged to fill our need. I consider the rattle-can direction to be the quick fix.

[dhbfaster]

Christmas showed up at 9:30 today. I can't wait to get home to open the plastic.:D

[Luva65wagon]

Would have hated to be that UPS delivery guy...

So? How's it look!

[dhbfaster]

Burning the candle at both ends trying to get out for the holidays...didn't get all the way in, just opened the outer bag....it looks, incredibly new and clean looking. Hard to believe it's the same engine!

[dhbfaster]

So...getting everything ready for painting...and have another one of those dumb questions...Do I paint over the freeze plugs? (all new and already installed.):WHATTHE:

Looked at different forums online and it seems like the answers are about 50/50!

Roger and Gene...I hope the engine install went well. I know it's not a falcon, but I think we'd all like to see some pictures if you have a chance.

[Luva65wagon]

Don,

It has been done both ways for years, so most don't think it through. I always install them after paint - for two reasons. One, if I use the brass block plugs (these are the ones that corrode first, so brass resists this type of failure) and I just simply like the looks of them - even when you can't see them later. Two, they have to be able to move. One can assume if the water freezes behind them they'll move no matter what, but the paint may act as a resistance (albeit small) to this movement. I doubt it will stop them from popping if ice forms and as such I think you'll be fine.

Thanks for taking the effort to make that hoist available last moment. I intended to bring the leveler, but couldn't find it. Found it Saturday still wrapped in the white plastic bag you delivered to me in.

[dhbfaster]

Yea, I called S&J early this morning about it and they said paint them or not doesn't matter...Now I have a decision to make. They are brass and look really cool actually...I'll try to get some pictures up this weekend before I paint...

Nice engine by the way...and some fancy photography too! Looking forward to the updates next week.

[dhbfaster]

Remember that pic of the dipstick tube? Well...it (the dipstick tube) didn't come back with the engine. :bicker:
It looks like falcon enterprises sells the dipstick tube (along with the dipstick)...just more money:WHATTHE:.after more money after more money...and every $20 bucks counts at this point.
If anyone happens to have one of these lying around in a junked engine laying in the corner I sure would appreciate the donation....
According to falconparts.com it's the same for all the 6cyl engines 1960 - 1970.

"1960-1970 6 CYLINDER OIL DIPSTICKS & TUBES
SKU: C2DZ-6750-B
This is the correct oil dipstick and tube which will fit all models of the 1960-1970 Ford Falcon & Mercury Comet equipped with a 6 cylinder engine. Unpainted as original."

[BOW]

[doghows]

Hey Don I have an old block in my scrap pile that just might have that in it. I'll try to remember to look in the am. Do you need that little tube or the whole thing?

[dhbfaster]

I have the dipstick, I just need that little tube. I'm not sure how far it goes down inside...most grateful!!! [BOW]

[doghows]

I'll let you know tomorrow. I'll write myself a sticky note and check it in the am before work. :D

[Luva65wagon]

Why the heck would someone pull that out?

I'll look at the 200 that was in the Ranchero (block is cracked anyway) so if Steve doesn't, I probably do.

[doghows]

Ok here is the one I pulled from my crap block. It looks longer than yours but you could easily cut it shorter. Of course I ran it throught the glass bead cabinet and here is a pic. I'll put it with Rogers wheels it's all your. :rocker:

[Luva65wagon]

Don, Steve's looks the same as mine would look. Maybe a picture of the dipstick would help. Your tube seems to to have a rolled funnel shape, whereas ours are straight.

[doghows]

I wonder if you could flare the end of mine. It's pretty soft material. If you get the right length I think it could be done.
Either way it's out and taped to Rogers spare tire carrier so someone is getting it. :)

[Luva65wagon]

Oh yeah, I'm sure if it fits the hole and they didn't change that too it can be formed to match. That height above the block is now an unknown (unless there are others reading this that has one they can measure for Don).

Just curious, Steve, what did it take to remove? Did it just pull out or did you use a drift and drive it out from within the block?

Still see no reason why it would have needed to be removed...

[doghows]

Just clicked on a set of vise grips twisted it in a circle and it pulled right out.
Easy peasy japanesey. :D

No saws all needed.

[Jeff W]

With a new rebuild I would just put a plug in that hole. No reason for it to need oil between changes... why check it.;:)

[dhbfaster]

Maybe you're right Jeff, I'm sure this thing will all be perfect the first time.:shift:
This tube looks like, well...just a tube. It's pretty simple that's for sure. Steve say's there's a stop inside the engine so it won't go too deep...but it seems like the height outside the engine is critical. If anyone out there has a '61 144 and a ruler...I would sure appreciate a measurement of how much sticks up.

[dhbfaster]

Anyone willing to share the trick for getting the old grease seal out of the timing cover without screwing up the cover? I can't seem to find anything to catch on to very well with a screw driver or a punch. :NERVOUS: See pics..

[doghows]

Send it over and I'll pop it out with my seal removal tool.
Pop down to an auto zone with the cover and they will have the tool. Usually you can rent the tool very cheap. It looks like a pry bar but has a hooked end on both sides. One to get inside the lip of the seal and the other one to rock it on.
I think you need that powder coated blue anyway. :D

[dhbfaster]

Yea, I've got one of those, but it seems like there's nothing to hook it on to here. What am I missing?

[doghows]

I usually jam mine in where that spring is. Usually the spring rips out first then you have a nice channel to hook it to.

[Luva65wagon]

For what it's worth I've driven out dozens of these with just the hairy edge of a drift punch. There is just enough edge of the seal to grab a punch. You can also try a small chisel set on edge. Support the back side with a tuna can to minimize the flex of the cover. These are not Loctite'd in place and once they give they drive out pretty easily. And once they move even just a little, there is even more area to drive against.

I have a nice powder coated cover Steve did for me, so if you do irreparable damage to yours, you can have it1. But I don't think you will.

[dhbfaster]

Well, it took a roll of masking tape and a sharp chisel and it went just like you said it would. [BOW][BOW]

[dhbfaster]

Btw Roger, thanks for the backup timing cover offer. Now you got me wondering if I should have powder coated mine. I think ill spray it, but still trying to decide if I should spray it off (without the screws) or on, and spray over the screws and gasket...or...it looks pretty good in natural too. Anyone know what color this was originally? It doesn't seem to be mentioned on the falcon "rules" page. Mine was partially painted.