Little @ time [Archive] - Rainier Falcons

Guy Monjure

November 3rd, 2011, 11:35 AM

Jeff,

I had a draft tube type and every time I stopped at a red light the heat smoke from the tube would have people looking at the Falcon like something was wrong with it. I really like the P-valve set up just for that reason.

Luva65,

Thanks, coming from my pears, people that really understand what it takes to restore a car means alot.

I have some questions about the generator convertion. Everyone on this site says how easy it is but I am the type of person that likes to understand how deep the water is before I dive in. I am coming up to the piont where I need to make an informed decision. Regarding setup, what is the difference in the one wire altenator, the internally regulated altenator, the externally regulated altenator, what wires go where and how do I go from a possitive ground to a negitive ground.

Guy

Luva65wagon

November 3rd, 2011, 01:18 PM

Guy,

We're all here to help and encourage. Many a project stalls due to a lack of one or both of these, which is why I try to help and encourage everyone I can. OK, and I occasionally irritate one of two of them along the way. :)

All post-60 Fords and Falcons are negative ground, so there is no conversion needed in this regard.

Every charging system requires a voltage regulator, which senses the current charge of the battery and "feeds it" only when it is needed. Where the regulator is, is the thing that has changed.

Improving the "amp rating" of a charging system rose sharply in the mid 70's when vehicles started adding lots of power-consuming options. It is rare today to see a 30-45 amp charging system. Most are pushing 100 amps or more. So if you want to add a lot of modern marvels to your Falcon (like I tend to do), then a generator, or a 30-45 amp alternator just won't keep the battery charged. The charging system will be at full-charge-status 100% of the time. It wasn't really every intended for this, nor would it keep the battery charged. A battery can provide far more current to the system than the charging system and the job of the charging system is to exceed the draw on the system to keep the battery charged - not drive your gadgets.

So, I said all of that to ask: What is your intention with this car? If you plan nothing more than what the car came with, a generator with an external regulator will satisfactorily supply enough current to keep a modern battery charged under that condition. If you want to run a few extra goodies, or maybe make sure your headlights stay bright 100% of the time (nothing pulsing bright and dim at idle), then you should at least upgrade to an alternator, which will significantly improve the current feed and keep the lights steady - and allow you to add a better stereo system if you want to.

An externally regulated alternator is a simple add, relatively speaking, but there are slight changes to the wiring harness needed where the regulator is, as well as the feed to the alternator itself over that of the generator. Really there are only 4 wires we are talking about here and you can easily create a single unique harness to handle this need, instead of using the wires in the original harness. But the best way to handle this may be to swap to the 65 harness feeding the core support. I have never really looked at the EXACT difference in these, but I suspect the only difference is the GEN versus ALT dash light feed wire, and where they go. And maybe horn relay.

A one-wire and internally regulated alternator are essentially both internally regulated. A one-wire alternator, like I have done twice now, does not in and of itself, trigger any sort of ammeter or charge indicator light. I didn't care since my plan is to use a volt meter gauge. An alternator feeding a running car using lights, etc, is almost always pushing 14.5 volts to keep a 12 volt battery charging. Current (ammeter) gauges or charge indicator lights might be a more "instant" indicator of charge status, but you almost always have an hour of more of driving - even on just the battery - if the charging system fails. So you only need to notice if the volt meter is reading 14.5 or 12 volts. 12 volts (or increasing lower) will indicate a no-charge state.

Suffice it to say, a 1-wire Ford 3G conversion is a bolt-in swap and only requires one wire and a large circuit breaker or fuse to go between the battery and the alternator. Some guys use the GM alternator. :WHATTHE:

I do, also, still have a lot of the stuff needed to swap to an alternator I don't plan to use, so I will try and shoot over some images of it all and pricing for what I want for it all.

Guy Monjure

November 3rd, 2011, 04:05 PM

Luva65wagon,

First of all let me thank you for your time in writing this all up for me. It has helped me understand how the system works.

I have desided to install an altenator. Your statement, "a 1-wire Ford 3G conversion is a bolt-in swap and only requires one wire and a large circuit breaker or fuse to go between the battery and the alternator," is the way I wish to go.

I would like to keep it as simple as possible. A 1-wire Ford 3G conversion being a bolt-in swap sounds like something I could pull off.

I can make and run a wire from the battery to the altenator with an inline fuse no problem. For this I would need to know the gauge wire, which post on the battery and altenator to tie in to, and the amp rating for the fuse.

I only want to run an aftermarket air conditioning unit. That is all I will be adding that is not already there. I like my AM radio and will be keeping it. As far as the system charging correctly, I will soon know if it does not just using my handheld voltmeter. By now you know me well enough to know I would never put anything GM into my Falcon.

I am very interested in what you have. Please round it up and post some pictures for me when you get the time. Once I see the parts I would like you to walk we through the installation. On the other side of the coin, I have a good working generator if one of you guys in Washington can use it.

Guy

Luva65wagon

November 3rd, 2011, 04:12 PM

Guy,

While I collect the other bits of information for you, just Google - 1g to 3g alternator swap - and you'll see lots of information on doing this. I buy the alternators I've used at the local swap meets, but they are out there too.

Cheers

Luva65wagon

November 4th, 2011, 10:06 AM

Guy,

Here's a picture of the alternator bracket I purchased from FalconParts.com, which I paid $29.95 for.

I did the connection slightly different on my wagon as opposed to my Ranchero. The wire connecting the alternator to the battery doesn't have to be as large as, say, your starter cable. Your starter draws very high amps, but for such a short time it gets all that "cranking amps" from the battery. But the cable should be bigger because of that. Ohms law, and all that. Small cables, higher resistance, etc.

So you can use a good 6 gauge wire (that's what the factory used) to be on the safe side, and I used a 160amp circuit breaker on my wagon, which cost me about $30 (available from auto electric suppliers).

For the Ranchero, I hit the wrecking yard and got a power distribution block from under the hood of a mid-to-late 80's Ford car. And used the main fuse from it to feed the alternator. See my crazy thread for photo's and detail on that. It comes with a 175amp fuse and cost $9 from the local Pick and Pull. I had to look through 50 cars before I found one that didn't have all the fuses pulled on it. I wanted more than just the main 175amp fuse. and them big fuses are $5 a piece in the parts store - which is why at a Pick and Pull they are all stolen.

The connection is as simple as: cable from + terminal on the starter solinoid (where the + battery cable connects and the other feed to the main wiring harness-to-core support-to-firewall), then connect to the fuse, then to the BAT terminal of the alternator. And that's it.

I have a LOT of wiring and I pulled a lot of this ALT feed 6 gauge wire. You need less that 2 feet of it on a Falcon, but they use 6-8 feet of it on the later model cars. So I just grabbed a lot of it. They don't even try to charge you for it. So neither will I.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Guy Monjure

November 11th, 2011, 08:21 AM

I have had trouble logging in.
Things I need;
1. 2’ of 6 gauge wire with an inline fuse.
2. 175amp /?volt fuse. What voltage rating?
3. 3G Ford alternator. What car should I say I need the alternator for, need correct pulley?
4. Bracket that allows the belt to line up with the other pulleys.
Things I do not know;
1. What to do with the wires that went to the generator.
2. Do I need to move any wires on the voltage regulator?
3. If the 6 gauge wire goes from the + side of the solenoid to the ‘bat’ terminal on the alternator, what wire routes to the firewall?
Guy

Luva65wagon

November 11th, 2011, 11:32 PM

1. 2’ of 6 gauge wire with an inline fuse.
Yep, about that.

2. 175amp /?volt fuse. What voltage Rating?
12 volts. You can find these where they sell fuses at the auto parts store. I'LLC try and snap a picture tomorrow of mine.

3. 3G Ford alternator. What car should I say I need the alternator for, need correct pulley?
I've bought mine already converted for a v-belt since they only had serpentine drives from Ford.

4. Bracket that allows the belt to line up with the other pulleys.
The one I posted or a stick Ford 6 alternator bracket.

Things I do not know;

1. What to do with the wires that went to the generator.
Disconnect and remove or tape off.

2. Do I need to move any wires on the voltage regulator?
Same as #1

3. If the 6 gauge wire goes from the + side of the solenoid to the ‘bat’ terminal on the alternator, what wire routes to the firewall?
The original wire that went there still does. That wire feeds the power to the interior still. We're only removing the regulator feed wires.

I may just draw you up a wiring diagram.

Guy Monjure

November 12th, 2011, 11:38 AM

Luva,

Thanks for your time walking me through this. Got a few more stupid questions.

1. If the voltage rating is 12volts wouldn't the fuse blow when the battery goes above 12 volts?
2. Where can I buy a 3G with a V pulley? Where did you get yours?
3. Will I have to disconnect the old generator wires from the voltage regulator?
4. Will I have to disconnect the feed wires from the voltage regulator that come from the firewall?

Sorry I am having such a hard time understanding this!
Guy

pbrown

November 12th, 2011, 05:22 PM

Guy,

A good company that makes high amp alternators is PowerMaster.

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/ford_late_model.html

Answers to questions:

1) It's the current and not voltage that will blow your fuse. Don't worry too much about 12V vs 14V.

2) You can find a 3G and swap the pulley to a V belt.

3) You will at least want to tape off any unused wire. I prefer to completely remove unused wire from the harness and retape for a cleaner look.

4) I'm not sure I understand this question. You will still have a GEN light in the dash and will want that moved from the old regulator to the new 1 wire alternator.

Here are some good diagrams to work from. As you can see in the 3G diagram, the red wire is the big wire going to the battery and the green wire is for the dash light. That's about it.

http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthread.php?29841-Alternator-wiring-diagrams-1G-2G-and-3G

Luva65wagon

November 13th, 2011, 09:21 AM

Guy -

Yes, what Patrick said.

As I indicated earlier, I'm going to use a volt meter instead of the factor Gen/Alt light, so I didn't use the feed wire from the regulator to this light. I agree also that I would have removed the wires from the harness, but you look to have already re-wrapped those, so you could disconnect the wires from the generator side, tape them off really good.

The big fuse goes between the battery terminal on the solenoid and the other side to the 6 gauge to the + terminal of the alternator. This just just protects that line. And 12 volts is relative. Most cars are 12 volt systems, even though the actual voltages vary between 12 and upwards of 16 volts. All fuses sold for cars are all well within this range.

I looked at the PowerMaster alternators, but I purchase a stock-looking Ford 3G alternator, with the v-pulley already installed, from a vendor I see at every car swap meet we attend here in the Seattle area. I think the search, if you do it on Google (I posted the search query above) will give you the cars that type of 3G alternator comes out of. There are, I think, about 3 mounting styles and only one bolts up to the stock bracket. And yes, you can swap out the pulley yourself. The 3G alternator is internally cooled, so you don't need to install the external cooling fan.

I will try to do a little more leg work into this for you by drawing up the diagram, or finding one on-line and posting it.

Luva65wagon

November 13th, 2011, 12:27 PM

This is a pretty good link:

http://www.ranchero.us/forums/showthread.php?t=13268

pbrown

November 13th, 2011, 06:28 PM

I just edited my last post after realizing that I forgot to include the link to the diagrams.

Guy Monjure

November 14th, 2011, 06:46 AM

Good Morning to all,

There must be an easier way! I'm just going to put it off till last. I will start by locating an 3G altenator, a V pulley without a fan, and a 6 gauge wire with an in line fuse. I am thinking of an Autolite 130 Amp 3G, but getting a V pulley the correct size will be a challenge.

PBrown, thanks for the powermastermotorsports link, but they sell altenators for 66 and up applications. Nothing for my 63.

I am going to study the 3G diagram in the other link you sent. I have seen some posts on our sight that say the wiring connections are "stupid silly". In the mean time I'll just keep installing the other parts and pieces.

On a side note:
I came across a product that will stop gas from spilling down the back of the car during refills. It looks good but you will have to see for yourselves. It is sold by Griot's Garage, www.griotsgarage.com (http://www.griotsgarage.com) , product #45533, name FuelGuard, price $12.99. What do you guys think?
May be a good gift idea.

Enjoy your day,
Guy

Guy Monjure

November 14th, 2011, 01:27 PM

Well I changed my direction today. It was so nice outside I took a trip to the junk yard. Today, outside anywhere seemed so much better than inside the shop. Plenty of winter days coming up for inside work!

I found 2 altenators from late 80s to early 90s Fords with pulleys. I do not know which one to use but I like the outside fan look better. My little 170 came with a generator which also came with an outside pulley. Plus you can tell it was just installed off of the car I found it in.

Please take a look and tell me what you guys would pick.

I just rewrapped and installed all of the wiring in the engine bay two weeks ago. I went into the shop this morning and started thinking how much I did not want to redo all of that work. Thats when I decided to change directions today.

If nothing else, if all of this is making some of you guys laugh, well then its all worth it.

Laughing at myself,
Guy

Luva65wagon

November 14th, 2011, 04:08 PM

The first one looks like a 3G alternator, and the second a 1G.

The body of the first, being offset mounting points, would be hard to adapt. The pivot and the the clamp parts need to be 12 and 6 oclock.

The 1G will fit just fine with the new bracket, but will need an alternator style regulator mounted over where the Generator regulator was. And a few wiring harness changes.

And of course... you could bolt up a generator again. :)

pbrown

November 14th, 2011, 04:21 PM

PBrown, thanks for the powermastermotorsports link, but they sell altenators for 66 and up applications. Nothing for my 63.

Keep in mind that most companies won't list alternators for the pre-65 cars because they didn't have alternators back then. The generator was what we all had back then.

You can retrofit about anything you want. Even a Chevy :WHATTHE: alternator can be made to work.

pbrown

November 14th, 2011, 04:27 PM

I do not know which one to use but I like the outside fan look better. My little 170 came with a generator which also came with an outside pulley. Plus you can tell it was just installed off of the car I found it in.

Please take a look and tell me what you guys would pick.

Use that one with the external fan. Go back to the yard and grab the voltage regulator and the pigtail from the same car. It will bolt in where your old generator version was. It will have one more wire than the old generator system.

You can also buy a regulator and connector new from most parts houses.

If you don't feel comfortable with the electrical work of an alternator, I would recommend a basic one wire unit. Once you get it bolted on, it's just a matter of connecting the big charge wire to the battery.

MacDee

November 14th, 2011, 08:09 PM

For what it's worth...

I did an alternator conversion on my '63, but didn't do the 1-wire thing. I used the diagram in this link:

http://www.mustangsteve.com/GENtoALT.html

It uses your existing wire harness, except that you need to add two wires, clearly noted on the diagram. I used the alternator from the '67 Mustang that donated my [first] 200 engine. I bought a new regulator from the local parts store, and used a #10-12 Quick Splice from the local True Value hardware store for my "junction block". It was easier that I expected.

One additional thing that I've read on other forums, but not included in this diagram, is the addition of a 15-0hm resistor across the charge indicator light. I got a 15-ohm resistor from Radio Shack and spliced it in behind the instrument cluster. That was kind of a hassle; had to remove the instrument cluster. MY guess is this is merely to reduce the voltage across the indicator light so it lasts longer. Without the resistor, the charge light would probably get a quick blast of 15 volts when you first fire up. I don't know how important this is, but you sure don't want your indicator light burning out if it's your only indication!

Anyhow... I'm just sayin'....

redfalken

November 14th, 2011, 09:07 PM

I went with the 1G alternator and did some rewiring. I've since rewrapped the harnesses so it looks nice and neat. You can get a new connector for the regulator from O'Reilly for cheap:

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/BWD0/PT65.oap?pt=01539&ppt=C0189

I didn't add the resistor but I do remember reading about it. I have a voltage gauge as a backup.

Luva65wagon

November 14th, 2011, 10:11 PM

Guy,

I'm leaning with Gary's suggestion for you. Keeps it very stock (post '65) looking, which it is clear you are shooting for. And it should make for minimal modification to your already wrapped harness,

If you are interested in the bracket I mentioned earlier, I can throw in the wiring, connector, and a regulator, which I no longer use because I have 1-wire on both my Falcon's.

Guy Monjure

November 15th, 2011, 06:40 AM

Luva65wagon,

If I go with the 1G externally regulated altenator why can't I just run the 3 wires that would have connected to the generator to the altenator? I was very lucky to find one with a pulley setup.

What are the wiring, connector, and a regulator you have that I will need to make the connection. I do need the braket, that is the only thing I am sure of!

Guy

Luva65wagon

November 15th, 2011, 10:05 AM

You can use the wires that you have, but there are a couple you will need to add - and ends will need to be changed to be correct, which includes the connector that plugs into the regulator. It does not have the screw terminals like you have on a generator regulator. I have a few of those connectors laying around here. You can have it all, and use of it whatever you need.

I'll send it all to you for $35 ($30 for the bracket, which is what I paid for it, and $5 for shipping).

Bracket w/adjusting arm
Regulator (w/next to no hours on it)
Connectors w/attached wire

Guy Monjure

November 15th, 2011, 04:09 PM

OK

Send me a measage here on site mail. Please tell me how to get the payment to you.

Got the tranny bolted up, (*&^right leg up again the tranny, left leg operating the floor jack handle up and down%^&***), routed some hoses, ran fuel and vacuum lines, and installed the carb. I also got a new voltage regulator from Checker, part #R400P. It is made to except the plug you are telling me about Luva65wagon. It came with a life time warrenty, (BWD Engine Management Technology) is whats on the box.

I found out why the fuel pump has to be mounted in what seems to be upside down. You'll see it in one of the pictures.

I had fun today in my own backyard shop. Played the radio, (got to be 50s or 60s going in my place), and just enjoyed being a free American working on an American car in my American neighborhood. Sorry, didn't mean to carry on.

Good Evening,
Guy

SmithKid

November 15th, 2011, 09:55 PM

Guy, your work is beautiful! Keep it up!

BillP 98201

November 15th, 2011, 11:02 PM

Very nice!!!!!!

Guy Monjure

November 16th, 2011, 05:22 AM

Thanks guys.

It is nice to have you guys to bounce things off of. Having this site to refer to has been a great help.

Good Morning,
Guy

Guy Monjure

November 16th, 2011, 06:04 AM

MacDee,

Thanks for the wiring link. Now I can see how to wire everything.

To All,
Please view pictures.

What is this capacitor for? I would like to replace it.

Am I missing a piece of the transmission mount? It looks like I am missing a rubber piece between the plate attached to the tranny and the brace. There is a rubber piece under the plate, should there be one on top the plate?

Guy

Luva65wagon

November 17th, 2011, 02:58 PM

I don't think you can buy those capacitors new anymore. They are a noise suppression device. They have a bullet connector on the alternator style.

I'm not sure what I'm seeing in the tranny mount picture. Something doesn't look right there, but I will have to look as mine at home to see what it is I'm seeing I don't get. I've never had an automatic car, so it may look different for that reason.

Guy Monjure

November 18th, 2011, 09:06 AM

Roger,

You can get me the parts when it is convenent for you. I know how to wire up the alternator but am not so sure about the placement of the wires going to the old regulator.

On the tranny mount it looks like I am missing a rubber bushing on the top of the plate. There is a rubber bushing on the bottom of the plate which is clear in the pictures. I am concerned if I am missing a bushing I will get vibrasions.

Guy

Luva65wagon

November 19th, 2011, 10:49 AM

Guy,

The parts have been mailed this morning. I didn't put the regulator in since you indicated having purchased one new.

There are three rubber parts of the transmission mount. There is a mount held with two bolts in the x-member mount and then a thin rubber washer between the x-member and the leaf spring with a big donut on the very outside of this with the shoulder bolt going upwards into the x-member. That's all there us. The shoulder bolt isn't long enough for anything more.

Guy Monjure

November 23rd, 2011, 01:00 PM

Luva65,

I got them, thanks. I have not had a chance to install it yet.

Happy Thanksgiving to all,
Guy

Luva65wagon

November 23rd, 2011, 09:18 PM

Excellent... Hope it goes together easy for you

And likewise to you and yours. Happy Thanksgiving.

Guy Monjure

November 29th, 2011, 07:32 AM

Hello to all,

Tapped out a couple of bolt holes and pulled the tranny pan yesterday. Found out the tranny screen is not reproduced any more, go figure! I spent a lot of my day yesterday looking for a new one and finally went into a tranny shop here in Albuquerque. I was told if the screen was damaged it could be re-screened for $90. Mine was in good shap and just needed to be cleaned. I used a can of carb cleaner which did a good job. I plan on installing the screen and pan today.

Hope your football teams came out on top this weekend,
Guy

Luva65wagon

November 29th, 2011, 10:40 AM

Hope your football teams came out on top this weekend,
Guy

The Seahawks? :ROTFLMAO:

Luva65wagon

November 29th, 2011, 10:43 AM

Most of the early tranny filters were just mesh to keep the big stuff out. So cleaning them with carb cleaner is just about as good as new. Keep up the good work and be sure to post lots of pictures. I don't know about other people, but I like [to post and see] lots of pictures. :D

Guy Monjure

November 29th, 2011, 03:15 PM

Afternoon

Went to Napa 3 times today trying to get the correct tranny pan gasket. The last time I walked in the line of people waiting turned the corner inside the store. I am hoping to get a pan gasket tomorrow.

Luva65

Early pictures for you,
Guy

Luva65wagon

November 29th, 2011, 03:47 PM

SA-WEET! It's almost like we are in a race or something.... And you are winning. :3g:

How'd you enjoy masking off that grille? Took me 2.5 hours of masking and 15 seconds of spraying. And thanks too - you answered my question about the hood-release lever location.

Guy Monjure

November 30th, 2011, 02:23 PM

It took me 40 hours to make it like new again. The seat belts were the boyscout type and I selved them for the ones you see. I got them out of a late 60s Ford F100. I changed from the original because these seemed better for an everyday driver.

Went to Napa this morning and they still did not have the correct tranny gasket. I will have to order one aftermarket. I installed the screen assembly and the pan without a gasket for now to keep the tranny clean. Installed the starter again after tapping out one of the bolt holes and it tightened up nicely.

The rest of the day is going to the wife to put up stuff for the holidays. Put up so more pictures.
Guy

Luva65wagon

November 30th, 2011, 02:45 PM

It took me 40 hours to make it like new again.
Guy

So, you stripped the anodizing and polished the entire thing again? I debated doing that on mine, but opted not to spend what I concluded might be 40 hours. That would have been truly "crazy" for me and prove to the others that I am not, in fact, building a driver. They are wondering that as it is.

You are clearly building a beautiful car.

[AGREE]

Jeff W

November 30th, 2011, 07:30 PM

This is the first time I have seen more than the engine compartment. I didn't realize it was a 4-door you were working on. That carpet looks great as do the floor mats.:rocker: I love the color.

How about a shot of the rest of the car so I can put the rest of your story in context.

Luva65wagon

November 30th, 2011, 08:31 PM

How about a shot of the rest of the car so I can put the rest of your story in context.

Jeff, You are starting to scare me. This is twice in a couple days you posted what I deleted. First the mention of the fender studs in the marker lights thread and now asking Guy for a full shot of the car. I had that all but written out, but second guessed myself thinking maybe he had and I had spaced it out. If it happens a third time...
:eek:

But yeah Guy. What's the rest of the car look like?

Guy Monjure

December 15th, 2011, 07:29 AM

Good Morning,

I am working on a 4 door, but still have it papered off for paint untill I can get the front end back together in case I scratch something. This is my second 4 door restoration and I really like them. Not too many people restore 4 door cars becuase they do not see value in them.

I has wondering if anyone has a 1963 Ford-O-Matic dip stick I could buy? Mine broke while I was restoring it.

I have not been able to get out to the shop lately because I was in a car accident. A young lady hit me from behind while talking on her cell phone. I need to rest a while before hitting the cold shop floor again.

Guy

BillP 98201

December 15th, 2011, 07:46 AM

Awww thats to bad Guy. Take it one day at a time. My friend was just rear ended the other day. It sucks!!!!!!

doghows

December 15th, 2011, 08:27 AM

I think I have a spare one of those laying around. I will double check, and if I do I will add it to the pile of stuff I need to get over to Rogers. If worse comes to worse I can ship it as well. I am over in Sequim.. Steve

Luva65wagon

December 15th, 2011, 09:41 AM

Well, Steve... considering Guy is in another state, bringing it to me only gets it 50 miles closer. 1000 more miles to go. :p

Sorry to hear about the accident, Guy. Cell phone use while driving is a ticketable offence here in Washington now... but you still see people chatting away on them all the time. Fewer, but still too many.

doghows

December 15th, 2011, 11:58 AM

OOOOppss. I forgot he was down in New Mexico.. Maybe a road trip is in order???? Gotta be warmer there??

Guy Monjure

December 15th, 2011, 04:43 PM

Thanks for the support,

I do need that dip stick for the tranny if you can find it Steve. I am happy to pay you for it including any shipping cost.

I have been thinking about what it would take to drive up and meet all of you guys, you never know!

Guy

doghows

December 15th, 2011, 04:48 PM

I will look tonight when I get home. I will have to use my night vision goggles however??

Guy Monjure

December 15th, 2011, 06:56 PM

No big rush Steve. Thank you.

Someone asked for a picture of the car and I found this one. This was taken on the second day after I got it. I was walking around her just thinking what I was going to do, when, and how much things were going to cost. So this is what she looked like when I got her. The thing about this car that got me hooked, there is absolutely no rust or corrosion anywhere on her.

Guy

Luva65wagon

December 15th, 2011, 10:49 PM

Beautiful car Guy. You did good. Was it a survivor car or was it partially restored prior to your getting it?

Guy Monjure

December 16th, 2011, 05:52 AM

Good Morning,

The car belonged to a lady in California just like you see it. Her husband passed away and she desided to sell it. No restoration work had been done to it. My goal is to restore it to as close to when Ford built it as I can. Maybe a little better!!!!!! I plan on using it as my daily driver. Even before I started the restoration people were drawn to the car. I think the car deserved to be restored, there are very few of them left and she's is a beauty.

Guy

doghows

December 16th, 2011, 07:58 AM

She is a beauty Guy. I found that dip stick. PM me where you want it sent and I will get it on it's way for you.

SmithKid

December 16th, 2011, 10:23 PM

I wish mine had been near that nice when I started! Beautiful Car, Guy.

Guy Monjure

December 18th, 2011, 03:04 PM

I got a few things done today,

I flushed the gas tank and main fuel line out and installed new fuel line where rubber was. I added an inline fuel filter about 8 inches before the fuel pump. Just want to protect the new fuel pump! Installed the tranny cooling and vacumm lines. Connected the hose from the block PCV valve to the air cleaner lid. And I installed the altenator but did not wirer it yet. I am liking the way it looks, it fit down in there nicely!

It felt good to be out in the shop with the radio playing, wrenching on my car. The temp got up to 50 degrees, it was a nice day too get out. My back began tightening up after four or so hours, so I called it a day. This week was the first time I've ever been rearended! I enjoyed it so much I missed the Staints play today.

Hope your team won,
Guy

Luva65wagon

December 18th, 2011, 10:40 PM

Almost looks ready for prime-time, Guy. The alternator looks at home and once you have the battery in you'll see a lot less of it, if you were worried about being period perfect. Like the dual master cylinder (which we know you didn't do yet) it really is a no-brainer upgrade. That is for the exception of the brain-work needed to wire it up. :)

Hope the recovery from the accident is a speedy one. Be very slow to settle. Let your body recover from shock before you settle anything. It can take a long time. I was in an accident in 1993 as a passenger where we were broadsided by a car going about 35MPH - and it hit on my side. I twisted to the left just as the car hit - fearing I was going to be showered by glass. Sadly I still deal with the pain caused by the injury I sustained that day. The only time I don't hurt (or realize that I am hurting)... is when I'm out in my garage.

doghows

December 19th, 2011, 08:16 AM

Looking good Guy, I hope that dipstick will fit in with your beautiful work. I will get it off in the mail today or tomorrow. Keep it up and don't over do it... Steve

Guy Monjure

December 27th, 2011, 11:29 AM

I was able to get out in the shop today for a little bit. I got everthing staged for the exhaust system installation. But then I started stiffing up again and got p ed off and just came in!

2 pics
Guy

Guy Monjure

December 27th, 2011, 02:42 PM

Got the exhaust system bolted up. I'm done for the day.

Hope everybody enjoyed Christmas,
Guy

falcon cobra

December 27th, 2011, 04:47 PM

Hey there it is looking good, when we get old we feel like the old cars that need a lot of work, hope you feel better now the exhaust is on...jh:rocker:

Luva65wagon

December 28th, 2011, 03:59 PM

Guy - it's pictures like that last one of the gas tank that make me say stupid things like "While I'm at it... I ought to..." and things like that.
:doh:

Fight it! [thumb]

It's looking really good and I hope, as well, that you feel your normal 100% soon.

Guy Monjure

December 28th, 2011, 04:12 PM

I am going to try wiring the regulator next Sunday or Monday when I get off of work. I am still waiting on the tranny gasket from MAC's and Steve's dipstick. I am very close to adding all of the fluids. I will feel alot better after she starts that first time.

My home town team won the South,
Guy

Guy Monjure

January 2nd, 2012, 07:19 AM

Luva65,

My plan is to restore the truck next summer. The exhaust makes the gas tank look it's age. But as you know this is not TV. Don't you just love those shows that restore a car in 1/2 an hour! As everyone knows auto restoration takes time, passion, love, and a lot of money. Ya, its the end product after its complete and your sitting next to your car at the local drive in. But really it's the journey that supplies the joy of our hobby and is what keeps me going.

Steve,

I got the dip stick but it is a mid to late sixties stick and not a 63 Ford-O-Matic. From one car guy to another, thank you for sending it.

The weather is going to be good today so I plan on spending the day in the shop. I would like to get the fluids in her today, but we will see how far I get.

Guy

BillP 98201

January 2nd, 2012, 08:18 AM

Lookin good. :BEER:
Just keep on pluggin away Guy

Guy Monjure

January 2nd, 2012, 06:09 PM

I finally got the stuff I ordered from MAC'S. Installed the tranny pan and the drive shaft today. Got the wrong o-ring for the tranny fill tube, I will go looking for the correct size tomorrow. Filled her with oil and cooling fluid too. Also leveled the hood latching assembly.

Can anyone help me with this part? In the pictures you can see it is the small tranny cover. In the last picture you can see the large tranny cover installed. I labeled it front passengers side, but for the life of me I cannot figure out how it goes. Maybe someone has a picture with it installed.

Man I had fun today,
Guy

Guy Monjure

January 3rd, 2012, 02:23 PM

It was in the fifties today, man it was nice down here,

I got in the shop today and went right to the regulator wiring. I'm trying to go from a generator to an altenator, just to fill in a bit. I put it off to long. I got 4 connections made today.
1. Indicator (from firewall) to 'I' on the Voltage Regulator, (VR).
2. Altenator (at back of altenator) 'Grn' to chassis ground.
3. Altenator (at back of altenator) 'STA' to 'S' on the VR. I ran a whight wire, 14 gauge.
4. Altenator (at back of altenator) 'FLD' to 'F' on the VR.

I still have the altenator (at back of altenator) 'BATT', and a wire coming from the solenoid to connect to the VR. Those are the two I need help on.

One thing that I cannot not see yet is how that large yellow wire from the back of the altenator, 'BATT' is going to hook up to the small yellow wire coming out of the voltage regulator pigtag connector.

I put pictures in of the connections at the back of the altenator, and voltage regulator pigtag.

Had fun today, thats two days four hours each and thats all I can get to for now.

It's time to get to the beer for now,
Guy

Luva65wagon

January 3rd, 2012, 02:31 PM

The yellow from the ALT and the yellow from the VR can tie together at the BAT + side of the Starter Solenoid (not the side going to the starter terminal).

See that diagram Gary MacDee posted a few pages back with the Gen to Alt conversion. They show a terminal block, but as long at they all to the same stud on the BAT + side of the solenoid, then you're good.

Guy Monjure

January 3rd, 2012, 06:55 PM

Thanks, when I printed it out the junction box was to light to see.

Also got 10 gallons of fresh gas into the tank today. You should have seen the look on the guy's face. My gas can only wholes 2 gallons so by the fifth trip he already knew what I wanted.

Guy

Guy Monjure

January 5th, 2012, 10:50 AM

I scored a set of restored hub caps. I could spend months on the ones I have and they still would not come out as nice as these. Don't ask me how much I paid for them!

Guy

Luva65wagon

January 5th, 2012, 11:23 AM

Wow - those look awesome!

So, how much did those cost you?

:ROTFLMAO:

I got a quote once to do a set from a vendor at a swap meet, and just based upon the time they say they would spend on them, and their hourly charge, I was adding it up in my head to be about $500. I said, :WHATTHE: "Thanks for the info" and walked away.

doghows

January 5th, 2012, 12:02 PM

Those are cool. Very shiny:rocker: I'll trade you for a ranchero toneau cover?? Just kidding Roger wants it..:)

Guy Monjure

January 6th, 2012, 07:11 AM

Good Morning,

On 01/02/2012 I posted pictures of a small tranny cover that bolts to the passenger side, (at least thats what I maked it as about 2 years ago when I took it off), of the tranny by the torque convertor. Can anyone help me with how it is installed? I cannot figure out how it goes.

Those hub caps were just to nice to pass on. For the amount of time I would have put in on the set that came with my car they were more than worth the purchase.

Hoping to start her up next Monday!
Guy

Luva65wagon

January 6th, 2012, 09:42 AM

Guy, I wish "I" could help - but I live too far away. I'm usually pretty good at mechanical puzzles if I can see them in the flesh, but from the photos of the parts alone, I have no clue. Can you snap a bunch more photos of the area you think it is supposed to go?

I have Googled and looked in my 65 book, but this may have been discontinued by 65. I can find no mention of these anywhere.

Guy Monjure

January 10th, 2012, 07:58 AM

My Tigers got crushed,

Does anyone in the club have a car like mine, with the Ford-O-Matic? Maybe they would take a picture for me.

No rush, I won't be installing it for a little while. I had to go to the doctor yesterday with this dog-on back pain. Seems like I am out of the shop for a while. Doctor says at the least two months, but I'm sure I will get back to it before then. Man, you never know what one day to the next will bring.
I am just glad its not any worse,
Guy

Guy Monjure

January 11th, 2012, 08:24 AM

Luva65,

It would be great to have your club closer. And I appriciate your wanting to help me.

I like that 2 barrel carb you installed. If I could have made my air cleaner housing fit a 2 barrel I would have installed one on my rebuilt 170.

I may try and finish the connects on that altenator today.

Thanks,
Guy

Luva65wagon

January 11th, 2012, 11:19 AM

Luva65, I like that 2 barrel carb you installed.

You may be thinking of Kenny's car (Redfalken) who has a Weber 2 barrel installed. I have an Autolite 1100 on the wagon and a Holley 1940 on the Ranchero - both are 1-barrel carbs offered by Ford.

Kenny was able to modify only the base of his air cleaner to accept the Weber - and of course a few other things below the carb as well. It's something I may someday consider on the wagon, since it will always have a 6-cylinder, but the Ranchero is going to be a V8 "real soon now."

:3g:

Guy Monjure

January 16th, 2012, 01:02 PM

Hello all,

Finally got the altenator wired up and the battery in. I am going to need a new battery hold down, mine is dry rotting. I worked about an hour and quit because my back started acting up. I just have to get the tranny dipstick tube in place with a new o-ring and fill the tranny up. I left the end connections I made on the regulator exposed until the car gets started, just in case I screwed something up. Every time I work in my shop I learn something new, just sometimes its the hard way!

Guy

Luva65wagon

January 16th, 2012, 02:56 PM

Looks good from here Guy.

Early Fords didn't offer a lot in the way of fusing at the source (AKA your battery). So if you've done anything wrong in wiring, the way you usually find that out is when one of the wires fry when you hook up the battery. Been there, done that. Not exactly the best way to prove your handy-work.

So if I might make a suggestion, when you go to connect the battery for the first time, you might want to clamp (or firmly tape) a 20 or 25 amp fuse into the space between the clamp and touch the other end of the fuse to the battery first. If you've done something wrong in your wiring, this should hopefully blow the fuse and not fry wires instead.

It doesn't really matter which side of the battery you do this to, but the general rule of thumb is to always connect and disconnect the ground first, so I would apply that rule here too.

I would check first with the key off and then, if all is well and the fuse doesn't blow, turn the key to the on position and touch the fuse again to ground. If that doesn't blow the fuse either, then you have no dead shorts on at least these circuits. You could continue this same procedure on almost all the circuits that are in a Falcon, like turning on your headlights, touch the fuse; turn on your heater, touch the fuse; etc., etc.

Should help ease your mind now that I've given you reason to feel dis-ease. Ignorance isn't always bliss as you watch a wire, wrapped into a bundle of other wires, begin to glow like a lightbulb. :WHATTHE:

Here's a picture I drafted to help.

Luva65wagon

January 16th, 2012, 03:16 PM

Oh, and for what it's worth, this fuse would NOT be enough to handle cranking over the engine. This is only to verify there are no dead shorts, which are typically the cause for catastrophic smoke-causing events.

In fact the 20-25 amp fuse is too big to find small shorts, but there are other ways to detect these.

To find and check for small shorts or current draw, I use a light-bulb in series instead of a fuse. Same principle, but wire a light bulb socket with a small bulb between the battery terminal and the battery. Typical current draw from a radio memory or similar device should not be enough to light-up a light bulb. If the light bulb glows brightly, and nothing is turned on (doors open, dome lights, key on, etc) then you have a significant short and you can then (on cars with a lot of fuses) pull a fuse at a time until the light goes out and you find the source. With a Falcon and its 3 or 4 fuses protecting the entire car, you can still narrow-down the circuit and then individually trace the items on that circuit until you find the one causing the failure.

You're probably good, but these are simple and fool-proof ways of saving tons of grief.

Guy Monjure

January 25th, 2012, 05:48 AM

Luv65,
Thanks for the good advice. I read over your last 2 letters a couple of times. I will let you know how it goes.
Guy

EdsFunny

January 25th, 2012, 08:34 AM

I scored a set of restored hub caps. I could spend months on the ones I have and they still would not come out as nice as these. Don't ask me how much I paid for them!

Guy

I've got a beat up version of those on my blue Falcon, and now I'm wishing someone could come up with a way to get them onto 15" wheels. I don't wanna give them up, even if they're not as sweet as yours.

Luva65wagon

January 25th, 2012, 10:02 AM

Luv65,
Thanks for the good advice. I read over your last 2 letters a couple of times. I will let you know how it goes.
Guy

Sometimes I read these emails on my iPhone and think to myself - "OK, what was it I wrote again?" So had to log in and see. After reading them I found one little error. I said:

It doesn't really matter which side of the battery you do this to, but the general rule of thumb is to always connect and disconnect the ground first, so I would apply that rule here too.

It should be better stated:

It doesn't really matter which side of the battery you do this to, but the general rule of thumb is to always connect and disconnect the ground, so I would apply that rule here too.

Adding the word "first" made no sense. You don't want to hook up the ground "first." Always tie up the positive and leave it connected. That way when you are loosening the ground bolt, if you accidentally touch a part on the car with your wrench, you don't weld it between the battery and the car. :doh: The worst you could do is to accidentally short to the positive terminal.

You can also use a amp meter to verify there is no current flowing when nothing is on (a short), but using a light bulb is so simple -- and everyone knows what a light glowing looks like. :D

doghows

January 25th, 2012, 10:41 AM

Is that like the light at the end of the tunnel???:D

Luva65wagon

January 25th, 2012, 11:23 AM

Is that like the light at the end of the tunnel???:D

Hopefully that one and not the one that says "go to the light." [where's a halo smiley when you need one]

Guy Monjure

January 30th, 2012, 11:25 AM

Luva65,

I tried to start the engine today. Removed the plugs and turned the key. I got dash lights, horn, head lights, etc. Car would not make any noise. Bypassed the soleniod and the engine turned over with no problems. Put the plugs back in and bypassed the soleniod again and the engine turns but does not start. Added gas to the carb and tried again, no joy. Moved the distributor right than left and tried again, still no joy.

Replaced the soleniod and still have to bypass it to get the engine to turn over. I have 13.75 volts on the battery and on the input to the soleniod but when I turn the ignition key nothing happens. After cranking the engine sevial times I have no burn smell are glowing wires. All of the wires look connected behind the start key switch.

Any ideas?
Guy

falcon cobra

January 30th, 2012, 12:49 PM

Pull the coil wire from dist. and check for spark, also check the + on the coil for voltage with key on, pray....jh[BOW]

Guy Monjure

January 30th, 2012, 01:37 PM

Gave up for the day. I will get after her in the morning. The battery read 12.29V when I left the shop. I checked continuity on the 3 main fuses behind the ignition switch and they are all good. We will see what it reads tomorrow morning.

It sounded like it was going to start once after putting gas into the carb.

Hopefully I'll have better luck tomorrow,
Guy

Luva65wagon

January 30th, 2012, 03:44 PM

Guy,

When starting the car, all the start and run voltages come from the starter solenoid. The brown wire should be on the S terminal of the solenoid and the Red/Blue is on the I for ignition. The solenoid will send 12 volts to the coil on start.

The brown wire (on a car with an automatic) gets 12 volts when you turn the key to the Start position, but it first goes through the neutral safety switch. A manual transmission car does not have this.

When the car starts and you let off the key to the RUN position, then the coil now gets voltage through the resistance wire under the dash. About 9 volts.

Coil voltage tests-

1) You can check these two voltages at the + on the coil in both Start and Run positions of the ignition switch with the MAIN cable to the starter removed to keep the starter from rotating.

Start/Run circuit tests-

1) Take a test light or volt meter and connect it to the brown wire going to the solenoid and the other side of the test light/meter to ground. Any socket with two wires and a 12-volt light bulb will work. You just need to make sure you can see it from inside the car as you turn the switch to the start position.

Note: No need to have this brown wire connected to the solenoid while doing this test.

2) Turn the key to START. If the light doesn't glow or 12 volts read with the ignition key to the start position, then you are not getting voltage to the start terminal of the solenoid.

3) I would then verify at the key switch, using the same light, the red/blue wire. If you have voltage there, but not at the brown, you may have a faulty neutral safety switch, or it is not adjusted correctly. This has to be adjusted to allow 12-volts to flow from the red/blue wire at the switch, through the neutral safety switch, then on to the connector at the firewall, which then turns to brown as it goes to the starter solenoid.

A big note of caution: If you use a remote starter switch to turn the motor over, and you have the key in the RUN position to start the car, be aware that if the car is in gear when it starts, an accident is in your future. Be very careful. You have had the engine and transmission out and adjustment of the linkages may not be 100% correct. Make sure PARK for the shifter is putting the transmission lever into PARK.

If you do get 12 volts or a light to glow when turning the ignition key to START, but the motor will also turn over when using a remote start switch, then there is a demon possessing you car. Run, run fast. :NERVOUS:

Guy Monjure

January 31st, 2012, 07:03 AM

Luv65,

I went out to the shop and found the voltage on the battery to be 12.22V. This is a good sign, no shorts! The engine turns over great so I do not think the internals are messed up at this point.

OK, I had the solenoid brown and red/blue swapped. The engine turns over without bypassing the soleniod any more. So the solenoid and neutral safety switch are wirer correctly. Thanks Luv65!!!

Yesterday working by myself I put the key into the run position, not all the way to the right, or start position. I will hold the key in the start position untill it starts next time.

With the starter wire disconnected and the key in the run position I have 12V on the + side of the coil. Thanks Luv65!!! If she does not start I will continue working through the start/run circuits.

No demons, no running.
Its going to be a good day,
Guy

Luva65wagon

January 31st, 2012, 10:07 AM

Guy,

Glad you're making progress.

I've been debating, and others have brought it up too - and now when I see it abbreviated down to Luv65, even more so. I now have a 65 wagon and a 63 Ranchero and my user name no longer works for me. I guess I may could change it to RogerLuvsFalcons. But that's kind'a foofy.

I use the Luva prefix as a memorial to a friend of mine, Rick Swan, who passed away a few years ago. I used to work with him and he once sold me his 86 Dodge Colt station wagon, which he'd bought new, and loved it so much (stories of how he used his station wagon...). Uh hum, anyway, he was a professional drummer and my wife and I (when she was) went to see him play one night and as we walked into the club he yelled over the PA - "Gotta love a station wagon." So the Luva sort of only applies to station wagons for me in remembrance of Rick.

Anyway, sorry to hijack this thread with my little story, but I guess, for now, I'm Roger - until what time I come up with a new Username that fits me better. :D

Guy Monjure

January 31st, 2012, 01:40 PM

Roger,

Good story!

She wants to start so bad. A couple of times she backfired. I thought I was sure about the distributor placement but not so much now.

I have air. I have gas. I have fire to the coil. I think I will take the coil plug wire off at the distributor and see if there is a spark.

Which way do I turn the distributor to advance the timing? Is it clockwise or counter clockwise?

So Roger it is,
Guy

Luva65wagon

January 31st, 2012, 01:55 PM

Sure sounds like maybe a tooth off or so. Or 180 degrees out, which is more common. The distributor advances timing on a 6-cyl going counter-clockwise.

falcon cobra

January 31st, 2012, 04:59 PM

Sorry to say this but don't you have a falcon shop manual ? if not why not ?...jh[BOW]

Guy Monjure

February 6th, 2012, 05:18 PM

To everyone, I am working this as my hobby. It is a way for me to enjoy my day. Any ones ideas will be entertained, so help if you can!

Still working the wiring. I am using Part 2-1, Ignition system maintenance inside the 60-62 Falcon shop manual.

I have 2 issues outstanding of the manual.
1. I have a Pertronix Ignitor 2, which the car drove on every day before I started working on her.
2. I converted from a generator to an altenator, which caused for a different Voltage Regulator.

I followed Figure 5-Starting Ignition Circuit Test.
My voltage dropped out, too 0.45 volts.

I worked my way through each Figure test before the above one and passed all of the voltage requirments.

For tonight I am thinking the starter ignition circuit is roughted incorrectly.

My wife says to stop thinking above it,
Thanks Roger "CC"
Guy

Luva65wagon

February 6th, 2012, 11:05 PM

I don't have a book with section 2.1, but I can say:

- At the + side of the coil you should have the red/green wire
- In the run position the red/green wire at the coil should have 9 volts.
- If you don't, then trace that red/green wire back to the firewall connector where it is combined with the red/blue wire (that wire goes to the solenoid I terminal) . You should read 9 volts in that terminal.
- If you do have 9 volts there, then there is a break between the firewall connection and the coil.
- If you don't have 9 volts at the firewall connector, then make sure the pink resistance wire under the dash is plugged into the short red/green wire coming off the ignition switch.
- You should have 12 volts at the ignition switch red/green wire where it plugs into the pink wire.
- If you have 12 volts there, but not at the other end of the pink wire (where the red/green wire plugs in from the coil), then the pink resistance wire may have failed. It happens. Easiest fix for that is adding a ballast resistor and running a wire from the stubby red/green wire at the switch to one side of the ballast resistor, the other side to the coil.
- That is all the tests

A Pertronix unit will want full 12 volts. So you should have a wire from the center of the ignition switch (the long stud) to the red wire of the Pertronix.

Again, the + side of the coil, if a stock coil, needs 9 volts in the run position and 12 volts (from the solenoid) in the start position, as I mentioned in a previous post.

Guy Monjure

February 7th, 2012, 06:43 AM

Thanks for your help Roger,

As soon as it warms up this morning I'll get after it again. I'll keep you posted.

Had to reference the manual in my last post to let others on our site know were I'm coming from.

It's a party for sure when this baby starts!!!!!!!!
Guy

Guy Monjure

February 13th, 2012, 11:36 AM

Still no joy!
I'll go through my findings so far, I need help.

1. I removed the extra wire (12V always) from the long stud in the middle of the ignition switch for the Pertronix unit.
2. Removed starter cable and turned key to run.
3. Battery has 13.90V.
4. Ground to soleniod 'S' 9V.
5. Ground to soleniod 'I' 12V. Should this voltage be 9V, not 12V?
6. Turn key off.
7. Both 'S' and 'I' wires from the soleniod to the firewall have continuity.
8. Disconnected pink wire from red/green at ignition switch.
9. Ohmed out pink wire from disconnect at ignition switch to firewall inside the car to be 8.6 ohms.
10. Have continuity on both sides of the neutral safety switch in 'Park' and 'Neutral'.
11. Turned key to run. Have 12V where red/green wire plugs into the pink resistance wire at ignition switch.
12. Have 9V on both + and - sides of the coil.
13. Disconnected the pigtail at the voltage regulator. Still measure 9V on both + and - sides of the coil.

Please help if you can, I'm frustrated,
Guy

Guy Monjure

February 13th, 2012, 02:19 PM

Verification from last post:
I believe the 8.6 ohms in the pink resistance wire is from the pin side of the voltage light probe through it's circuit to my ohm meter. Still the pink wire has continuity and does have the expected voltages.

I'm beginning to think my altenator tiptall tie-in to the voltage regulator may be the issue. Thats the only wiring I altered in the whole engine bay project besides the placement of the distributor. With that vacuum modual I can't see how it could be 180 degrees out.

I hope you guys projects are going better than mine,
Guy

Luva65wagon

February 13th, 2012, 02:42 PM

Guy,

I'm doing some research for you right now (in between other things), but it is easy to pull the connector to the ALT at the regulator or the big wire going to it from the starter solenoid. If you are concerned that is the case (I can't see how, yet) then worry about that after you get the car started.

Really, you should be able to bypass the rest of the car this way:

1) connect a jumper wire from the + of the battery to the + of the coil.
2) connect another wire from the + of the battery to the red-wire of the Pertronix.
3) Black wire from the Pertronix to the "-" of the coil.
4) All other small wires removed from the starter solenoid for this test.
5) Use a remote starter switch or a screw-driver and connect the + BAT side of the starter solenoid to the closest small terminal on the soleniod (should be "S") to turn the motor over.

Juice flows to the coil and Pertronix - car starts. If it doesn't then bad coil or Pertronix unit. This bypasses all other sources of mistake - apart from a mis-oriented distributor rotor (see 180 degree comment in the below thread). If it starts, reintroduce one thing at a time until it doesn't start.

Unless it is an aftermarket coil, they don't all like seeing 12 volts for long, but it won't be a problem to test this out. In fact if you went with a Pertronix coil, you could get away from the entire 9 volt anything.

Here is a link for testing the resistance of a coil to make sure it is still good.

http://www.pertronix.com/support/tips/default.aspx#a2

More to come...

Luva65wagon

February 13th, 2012, 02:51 PM

...the placement of the distributor. With that vacuum modual I can't see how it could be 180 degrees out.

It's easy to get a distributor 180 out. The external part of the distributor plays no part on that. It's the rotor/shaft and where it is pointing that has potential for being in the wrong place relative to the body of the distributor, which keys the cap. You can pull up the distributor body to clear the gear in the motor, rotate it anywhere, and plop the distributor back into the hole. It will all look the same out where you see everything, but it will not run.

Guy Monjure

February 13th, 2012, 03:40 PM

Thanks Roger!

I'm going to print your last two post and read them about 3 times. I'll need some time to think all this through.

I appriciate your friendship,
Guy

Luva65wagon

February 13th, 2012, 04:06 PM

No sweat. My last post is essentially saying that the body of the distributor keys the location of the cap, which then has the wires going to the plugs.

Firing order, which needs to know rotation of the rotor (clockwise and 1,5,3,6,2,4 in this case), has to be followed for these all to go to the right holes.

Then you have to make sure the crank is at top dead center on the compression stroke of cylinder #1 - AKA zero on the timing scale on the balancer.
Note: The balancer will read zero at top dead center on the exhaust stroke too. This would be 180 degrees out of phase if you point the rotor to #1 on the cap at this point.
Figuring out which stroke you are on can be a little hard to determine, since all you have with the motor together is compression pulses to figure out which stroke you are on. Pull the #1 plug and rotate the motor and you will feel the compression pulses as the piston comes up. It pushes air in both the compression and the exhaust stroke, but on the compression stroke both valves are closed and you should feel considerably more force. I use my thumb and cover the hole where the spark plug goes and have someone bump the starter while I watch the pointer on the balancer.

When you are pretty sure to be at TDC compression on #1, balancer reading zero, look at the rotor under the cap, relative to the cap. Is it pointing to about where the #1 wire connects? If not, then you need to pull the distributor out of the motor and keeping the body of the distributor in the same orientation, rotate the rotor and shaft until the rotor just about points where it needs to be. It will want to rotate a little more as it engages the cam gear, so you may need to move it one tooth one direction or the other before you seat it.

But that's how that works.

doghows

February 13th, 2012, 04:41 PM

I think we need to invest in a transporter machine so we can just zip you around when people need help.
I have to say for typing all that out it still made sense. (sort of kind of)[BOW]

Guy Monjure

February 14th, 2012, 06:27 AM

Thanks for your time Roger.

When I find my way a little further I will yet you know. I have restored a few cars over the years but this is my first engine rebuild.

This will all make it sweeter when I do get to drive it,
Guy

Guy Monjure

February 14th, 2012, 01:35 PM

I am learning alot and that is one of the things I got into the hobby for. After getting frustrated the other day I realized that frustration was not one of the reasons I built the shop. I am going to commit a little less time to this as we go to help keep my prospective.

Pulled the ALT connector at the regulator. Completed the 5 step test you posted for me Roger and it is still just rotating the engine and not starting. I am going after the coil and the Pertronix unit next.

Thanks to all,
Guy

Luva65wagon

February 14th, 2012, 03:36 PM

... but it doesn't always work out that way. When you build a car from scratch like I just did - I mean really, almost completely from scratch - you expect to run into things. A few mods can add to frustration, but a lot of mods can be almost overwhelming. I'm happy to say a cool head prevails as you work through issues. So breathe, relax and know that it will be resolved. It can always be reduced to its most basic (like the previous post I offered) and that then really only leaves a few things.

Of course the assumption can be made that the motor was assembled correctly and you have compression, which is one of the 4 essential things you need. Air, compression, fuel, spark. And all happening at the right time.

So if we go through these one at a time, it's pretty simple testing:

1) you are breathing, so there must be air. It is tied to compression, so if you have...
2) compression, then you probably don't have mechanical reasons for it not running.
3) Fuel - if you pump the gas pedal and see fuel being pumped into the throat of the carb, you have fuel. Too much fuel in a non-starting motor can cause a too-rich condition and wet the plugs so bad that it won't run, so pull the plugs and check for...
4) spark and make sure you have that.

If all these are there, then it is either a mis-oriented distributor rotor/shaft, bad coil, or bad Pertronix. If you wired it in the most simple way I mentioned (bypassing every other wire and going direct to the battery), then you will find the dodgy bit in short order.

Barring that, I'm sure a round-trip ticket from Seattle to Phoenix isn't too expensive. :D

falcon cobra

February 14th, 2012, 04:34 PM

Hey guy, pull a spark plug and hook the wire back on it and turn key and see if there is a spark that will let you know if the ignition is working..jh

Guy Monjure

February 14th, 2012, 06:04 PM

FC,

I pulled number 1 and the spare coming to engine ground was just a thin white line. Not the thick blue spare you would explect.

Roger,
I have the original mustard top coil and I hate to give it up but will if it comes to it. And the engine is turning, pistons moving, got compression, got fuel to the carb. Did the below test if the ALT pigtag unplugged from the REG.

I performed a test I found on that Pertronix site you posted to me Roger.

Ran jumper from neg side of the coil to engine ground. Pos from volt meter to pos side of the coil. Neg from volt meter to an engine ground. Put in RUN and read voltage at pos side of the coil. I got 4.85V. Put in OFF, disconnect all the wires from the coil. Read the resistance. I got 1.5ohms. So 4.85V / 1.5ohm = 3.2A. According to the Pertronix documentation a 6 cyclinder engine should not exceed 4A.

I just followed the test to see if I meet the requirment for total amperage.

I'll be working the next few days so if I don't respond for a while thats why.
Thank you all for your help,
Guy

Guy Monjure

February 18th, 2012, 03:32 PM

I have still not figured this thing out.

I had no spark so I bought a new coil and installed it. The engine turns over beautifully, I can see the fuel through the carb, I can see the pistons going up and down, the oil flowing when I take the valve cover off, I can feel the compression with my thumb, but I have no fire. I confirmed I'm at TDC on combustion stroke pointed to #1. I went through the Pertronix paperwork and it does not tell you how to test if its good are not.

Guy

SmithKid

February 18th, 2012, 05:00 PM

Guy, I just installed a Pertronix II unit in my Ranchero and it works perfectly, but I know of at least one other person that had trouble with his. As the unit is fully sel-contained, I don't know if there is a need to trouble-shoot it. As I recall, you've checked the connections to the unit, so I'd recommend re-installing the points to prove the rest of the setup. If this makes lot's of joy around you, then it's definitely time to get on the horn to Pertronix for a replacement unit.

Or another direction would be to shoot an email to their customer support for guidance.

Guy Monjure

February 18th, 2012, 05:29 PM

I found all the old hardware I took out of the distributor today. I thought about installing it back, but now that you've put it that way I'll do it next.

Thanks,
Guy

Luva65wagon

February 20th, 2012, 07:26 PM

Guy,

I carry a set of points and condenser and the wire from the dist to the coil so I can swap out the Pertronix on the side of the road if I ever need to. I can't just run to the parts house and get one of those if they fail. And I have had 3 fail. The good thing is that Pertronix - so far - has replaced them all. One was almost 3 years old.

I can't recall if this is a new and previously running install, or a brand new install, but either way, going back to points and condenser would certainly be wise. Sure is starting to sound like that is the cause.

redfalken

February 20th, 2012, 07:52 PM

I lost a Pertronix unit once pretty quick when I shorted a wire under the dash. What's that they say about car projects? Step one: disconnect battery!

The original Pertronix had an issue where it would burn up if you left the key in the run position too long without the engine running. I think Pertronix II may have taken care of that.

When I ran the Pertronix I always had the points in my trunk just in case. I feel pretty good about my Duraspark/MSD setup but it does take a little away from the original look.

Luva65wagon

February 20th, 2012, 08:38 PM

I run the Duraspark II on 3 vehicles at the moment, one came that way, one is still all DSII parts (in the Flarecheromobile) and my pickup has a DSII dizzy and the GM ignition module. The wagon is Pertronix. Because I'm trying to keep the wagon sort'a kinda stockish (the headers are certainly not) I like the Pertronix option. But it's not easy to swap out a DSII system back to points, like you can Pertronix. Keep a spare distributor in the trunk?

;)

But I had my own share of "WHY WON'T THIS WORK!!!" :doh: yesterday on the 'chero trying to swap in the GM module (which I like for its simplicity and being cheap to replace), but I can't get it to work on the thing. Spent all day yesterday. Went back to the DSII module. Skwew it.

:o

Guy Monjure

February 21st, 2012, 06:51 AM

Thanks to everyone for your help.

I am planning to take the modual out today and install the points and condensor.

Can anyone tell me how much resistance is in the resistance wire?

If she does not start with the points where can I get a new resistance wire from?

You guys got a big storm coming,
Guy

Guy Monjure

February 22nd, 2012, 12:36 PM

OK, I installed new points and condensor. Removed the Pertronix module and disconnected the 12V from the long stud of the ignition switch that feeds it.

Engine is rotating and is now backfiring with a puff of vapor coming from the carb. The engine has never backfired before I took the Pertronix out.

I double (or by now tripple) checked #1 cylinder is on the combustion stroke at TDC. I turned the distributor CCW and CW but engine is still backfiring. I am happy about something having changed, but still have not got it started.

Guy

BPVan

February 22nd, 2012, 01:04 PM

Guy -

If you want to stick with the points, I recommend you do what Jeff did and not replace the resistance wire but install an inline resistor and mount it to the firewall. Install a new wire from the ignition, or use the one installed from the pertronix. Jeff has the resistor value you need.

I am a bit puzzled why your electronic ignition was not functioning. I also figured once you went electronic you wouldn't turn back. I run a DSII with an MSD identical to Kenny's setup and I have been much happier with the reliability.

Best of luck, I know you will keep us posted.

falcon cobra

February 22nd, 2012, 01:59 PM

Ok guy this is what you need to do, remove valve cover, turn motor to # 1 TDC and check to see if the valves on #1 are closed, just remember each 180degs will show TDC on the timing mark but it's not #1 each time, I don't remember what the other is [ havent had a 6 cyl for many years ] could be 3 or 4..so take plug out and stick a straw in the hole...jh

Luva65wagon

February 22nd, 2012, 03:08 PM

The firing order is 153624, so the cylinders are always in synch front to rear. This means #6 is also at the top, on the exhaust stroke, when #1 is on the compression stroke. 5/2 and 3/4 likewise.

So yes, as John is suggesting here, this is a way to make 100% sure you are on the compression stroke. #6 should have just been closing the exhaust valve and opening the intake valve while #1 should have both valve close and a little "lash" in the lifters. Not much, but clearly no valve being opened,

We are all assuming the the mechanicals were all in order. The back-fire can mean one of two things: either the valves are adjusted too tight and not building compression - or you are still 180 degrees out. Backfiring through the carbs is at least a sign you are now getting spark -- so that's a good thing. [thumb]

While I was chatting with Gene the other day we both even floated the thought that you might even have the timing chain on wrong. Did you do that install - or the machine shop? Do you have any doubts even about that?

Guy Monjure

February 22nd, 2012, 05:34 PM

Thanks for all of your input everyone,
I did not want to go back to points but the electronic module was bad. At lest that is what I believe was killing my spark. By putting the points back I've proven the rest of the ignition circuit. I think!

The Ford manual has a test for the resistance wire but I have not looked at it yet. I would like to know what the ohm value is suppose to be if I need to install a new one.

Test for 180 degrees out: #1 both valves closed and #6 with one valve opening.

I built the motor with a neighbor of mine who is a 30 year mechanic. This was my first complete motor rebuild and I knew I needed his help. The only thing I did not rebuild was the head, the mechine shop did that and all the milling. I was reading about the valve adjustment being to tight stopping the engine from starting in the Ford manual today. But I adjusted them following the Ford manual and under my friends supervision. How do you recommend the valve adjustment be performed?
Guy

Jeff W

February 22nd, 2012, 07:26 PM

The Ford manual has a test for the resistance wire but I have not looked at it yet. I would like to know what the ohm value is suppose to be if I need to install a new one.
?[/U]
Guy

The ballast resistor I used was 1.5 ohms. If the voltage test on the pink wire tests out as shown in the manual, I would keep the original set up. Mine tested well outside of the specifications. I would replaced with the original style pink wire if I wasn't planning on going with a modern set up next spring... one that uses full voltage. Since I had a nice young man (Brian) already laying on the floor of the car with tools and a soldering kit, it seemed like a good time to run a wire to the engine compartment where an old guy can access it.

Jw

Luva65wagon

February 22nd, 2012, 07:44 PM

Here's the spec on the resistance wire. It's sort of hard to measure in the car because one end is at the ignition switch (plugged into the short black/green wire) and the other end is in the connector under the hood hinge.

COLF-12250A
Resistor Wire-Ignition Coil (Motorcraft #DY37)
61.49" long
Color coded PINK
1.30-1.40 ohms resistance

Guy Monjure

March 6th, 2012, 01:44 PM

Thanks for the info.

I just been taking a step back lately. I know I'm going after the distributor position next but I just had to take a break. I looked around the shop and it was trashed. I got out there today for the first time in a couple of weeks, cleaned and orginized everything.

I got to get with it,
Guy

Luva65wagon

March 6th, 2012, 03:35 PM

It's good to step away sometimes - but we were getting a little worried that you ran away from it completely, screaming for the hills!

Shop looks pretty neat now. Time to start messing it up again. [thumb]

I have to ask... you said: "I built the motor with a neighbor of mine who is a 30 year mechanic." Where is he now? Can you not beg, uh I mean ask, him for some help to get this figured out? A 30 year mechanic should be able to sleuth this out in no time.

Guy Monjure

March 7th, 2012, 08:51 AM

He was my next door neighbor but he moved away last month.

With you guys help I will get her running. I know I lined the cam and crank up with the dots on the sprokets when I installed the timing chain. With everything cleaned up I plan on getting back to it next weekend. I will find TDC with both valves closed on #1 and get the rotor pointed in the right place. I'll get there, I just did not expect my first engine build to take so long. I am happy I built the engine myself because that is one of the items of auto restoration I had never done before. Although, screaming in the hills is still an option.

Hope you guys are getting a little better weather up there,
Guy

Luva65wagon

March 7th, 2012, 01:25 PM

Hope you guys are getting a little better weather up there

Well... my allergies are saying spring is on the way! [yay] Today is pretty nice, but had 3 inches of snow a couple days ago and icicles from the gutters this morning. Must mean were close. :rolleyes:

I'm sure you'll get it started too. When you find out what it is I bet you will slap yourself up-side the head and go... :doh: 'how'd I miss that?'

Guy Monjure

March 13th, 2012, 12:20 PM

Roger,

I found I was 180 degress off. I corrected that and she is wanting to start, but I am running out of cranking power before it runs on its own. I have another car running with the batteries connected.

With the new altenator / voltage regulator connected the voltage drops from 13.5V to 8.5V when I crank it than the voltage comes back up to 10.5V.

With the voltage regulator disconnected the voltage drops from 13.5V to 10.5V when I crank it than the voltage comes back up to 12.5V.

I still have not gotten it to run on its own, need help.

Hope everyone up there is having a good day,
Guy

Luva65wagon

March 13th, 2012, 01:01 PM

Guy - do yourself a favor and just disconnect the +12 volt cable from the alternator (should be a cable going from it to the BAT side of the starter solenoid on the fender apron) until you get the other issues worked through. It won't charge that way, but the car will run a LONG time on just the battery. Long enough to work out the bugs.

I know you got that alternator from a wrecker - right? - so have you run it to a local parts house to see if it's any good?

A battery on a low state of charge can still read 12 volts, but have very little cranking amps left, which would suck it right down under load. The difference with the alternator attached could just be the fact that it is trying to charge even when spinning at cranking speed (sorta doubt this though). But regardless - take it out of the equation for now. The heavy 12 volt wire going to it should be enough.

Guy Monjure

March 13th, 2012, 02:44 PM

Thanks for the reply.

I will disconnect the wire you spoke about for now. I will also bring the altenator to autozone to get it checked out because I did get it out of the junkyard. I have the battery charger on the battery now. I have to work for the next 4 days so that should give it time to bring the amps back up. And give me time to cool off. This is my fifth restoration, but my first engine rebuild.

It's 72 degrees and sun is shining down here,
Guy

Luva65wagon

March 13th, 2012, 09:05 PM

4 days is a long time for a battery charger unless it's one of those float-type battery tenders.

I'd not worry about hauling the alternator out yet - get the battery charged and get her running. Then hook up the wire again as see if all is normal.

Guy Monjure

March 18th, 2012, 11:21 AM

Roger,

First off, I want to thank you for sticking with me through my rebuild. Having you to bounce things off of has helped keep me going. There are always 100 voices to tear my efforts down for every one person that truely tries to help me. Thank you.

This morning I pulled the battery and the alternator and brought them to AutoZone to be tested. The alternator is good, putting out 65Amps. The battery was bad. I bought a new one and will get the battery and alternator installed this weekend.

I contacted Comp Cam because I was concerned about having turned the engine over without it starting. I thought I may have to re-lube the camshaft lubes and lifters, but their technician says the new camshaft and lifters should be fine and there is no need to remove them from the engine for re-lubing. He did recommend I get my electrical issues sorted out before trying to start the engine again.

I am going to trace out the wiring I did from the alternator to the regulator pigtail you gave me and write back to you as clearly as I can the connections so we can go over them together again Roger.

We are having 50 mile an hour winds today, pretty bad.
Hope your weather is better,
Guy

redfalken

March 18th, 2012, 01:18 PM

I don't know if you can do this with your engine but with my six I was able to pull the distributor, put a 1/4" socket extension down onto the oil pump shaft, hook up a drill and prime oil through the system.

Gave me piece of mind before starting the engine after a top end rebuild and cleaning the block. You might do a Google search to see if that's somehow possible with your engine...unless someone here knows??

Guy Monjure

March 18th, 2012, 06:46 PM

Maybe a 100 is an over statement, but theres always the peanut gallary.

Guy

SmithKid

March 18th, 2012, 07:33 PM

I did this a coupla months ago b/4 starting my new 302 and all worked fine. But I'd be remiss if I didn't suggest to you what was suggested to me. Use a good duct tape and secure the socket to the extension(s) that you use. You probably don't want to drop the pan to retrieve the socket that fell off your extension.

But I'm "figgerin" you don't need to do this procedure because you've turned it over so much attempting to start it.

Luva65wagon

March 18th, 2012, 08:08 PM

Guy-

I seriously doubt you have much wrong, if anything, with the wiring. I certainly don't think there's anything with what you added with the alternator. It really is a pretty basic wiring job, and you appear very detail oriented. With the distributor being 180 degrees out, that would have made it pretty hard to start, so with the new battery in I would play it safe and just do everything from under the hood until you can get it to start.

1) use a remote start switch (+bat to the S terminal on the solenoid).
2) jumper between +bat to the red Pertronix wire
3) jumper between +bat to the + on coil.
4) black on Pertronic to the - on coil.

Nothing else is needed to start it. 12 volts to the coil isn't good for real long if it's a stock coil. But just to see if you can get it to run for more than a minute, you'll be OK. Once you can get it to run that long, then you can hook back up one thing back to normal at a time.

Or just put in the new battery and see what happens.

It's snowing, raining, windy, sunny, (rinse, repeat) every few minutes around here. Very scitzoid weather.

Luva65wagon

March 18th, 2012, 08:15 PM

Oh - and I agree, you probably don't have to worry about priming the pump. You have been turning it over plenty. If you decide to anyway, I use a long 1/4" drive extension with a 5/16 socket taped about 2 or 3 times to hold it on.

Guy Monjure

March 19th, 2012, 08:26 AM

I have been pulling the plugs and turning it over for about 10 seconds to get the oil flowing before start attemps. When I pull the valve cover off I can see fresh oil everywhere so according to Com Camp the oil takes over after the engine turns over for lubing the internals. I am installing the altenator unit today and will begin going over the wiring I installed. At lease I found out the battery had a bad cell in it yesterday.

Thank all of you for your help,
Guy

doghows

March 19th, 2012, 08:57 AM

OK so I am tired of this cold wet weather. Roger get some tools together, I will pack up the motor home, and we are off to warmer country!!!
I wish. I hope you get it figured out Guy, I wish we were closer and we could have a tech day at your place. Any way keep plugging away you will get it and it will be worth it. We will stay tuned. Good Luck...[thumb]

Luva65wagon

March 19th, 2012, 10:31 AM

After waking up again today to snow and ice on the road - I'm with you Steve! ENOUGH ALREADY with the snow!

[AGREE]

Well Guy, as your post says... A little at a time. So relax and remember to breathe - always. I'm am still awaiting the post that says "IT'S ALIVE."

Guy Monjure

March 20th, 2012, 08:18 PM

Thanks. We'll get there.

I did learn something. Next time I go get an alternator I'm pulling the wiring with it all the way to the regulator.

I read one guys putting a 4 carb on his 6 cylinder, wow.

Guy

Guy Monjure

March 25th, 2012, 08:12 AM

Roger,

I bought a new battery, as my original one had a bad cell. It has 900 cranking amps. I bought a new starter but it was a direct replacement.

What amount of cranking amps do you recommend for my original type starter?

I am going to try and get her started today,
Guy

Guy Monjure

March 25th, 2012, 05:42 PM

I brought the battery back today and got a 650 amp. Got everything installed, ohmed out my altenator to regulator wiring, it all seems correct. I am waiting on an Actron dwell, tach, volt meter I ordered from Sears to arrive. I need to monitor the RPMs for the first 15 minutes to brake the cam in.

Guy

Luva65wagon

March 26th, 2012, 09:27 AM

Yeah- I don't think you're needing 900 CCA, but it probably would not have hurt anything. That's a "potential" value, meaning it is there if you need it. I have a red-top Optima with, IIRC, a 775CCA reserve. It turns over nicely.

Having the gauges are good, but the important thing is to just make sure you have high revs when it starts to break in a cam. But playing it safe is not a bad idea.

Keep us posted. We are all going to wish this forum has sound pretty soon. I can feel it.

Guy Monjure

April 1st, 2012, 12:49 PM

Good morning everybody,

There is music in Albuquerque. WaHoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am so happy I'm coming out of my skin. My first engine build.

Thank all of you so very much for all of your help and patience!

I ran her for 10 minutes at 1500 RPMs for the cam break-in and shut her down. As the RPMs increase the engine smooths out beautifully, sounding stronger. She is idling a little rough but I will go over the air/gas mixture and move the distributor a little back and forth to see if that will help the idle. The new battery held 12.50V after shut down, so I think the altenator is doing it's job. I will need a new ignition switch, as holding it in the start position has damaged it.

I called my Dad to let him hear it run. I could not wait to tell him so in the pictures that is why I'm on the phone.

My wife's 50th is on the 9th and we are going on vaction for the next two weeks. We leave on the 5th for a 10 day cruise in the Caribbean. I can now go knowing she starts.

Thanks to all of you for your help and encouragement,
You guys are wonderful, and so is the club,
I can't say thank you enough,
Guy

falcon cobra

April 1st, 2012, 03:27 PM

Good for you... I'll drink to that, now you can rest for now, at least you have the doors open, must be warm there....jh

SmithKid

April 1st, 2012, 05:09 PM

Great news. Guy! I know exactly how you feel, as I'm only six weeks or so from when I started mine. A GREAT feeling!

A quick way to check the output of the charge system is to check the voltage at the battery while the engine is running. It should (charge) be around 14.25 vdc and then taper down as the battery reaches full charge.

Again, congrats. [thumb]

Guy Monjure

April 1st, 2012, 07:13 PM

Smithkid,

I tried starting her again and found the battery is not being charged. Its an issue I will deal with after our vacation. I will also have to purchase a new ignition switch, mines trashed after all the use. Just another small thing.
I am going to order a switch. It would be great to find a place to get an atenator to regulator wirering hareness from. Anyone know were I could locate one?

falcon cobra,

It is in the seventies down here today. A fine day to get out in the shop in Albuquerque.

For now I am so glad to have gotten it running. You might have known, April Fools Day. Boy don't that just fit me perfect. Ha Ha
Man it sounds strong.
Guy

Luva65wagon

April 2nd, 2012, 11:33 AM

Guy-

This is awesome. I'm glad for you. Having started a lot of motors for the first time you are always smiling from ear-to-ear on all of them. Just like you were.

You checked the alternator, so that's good. I think you said (I'll have to look again) that the regulator was new. So that leaves really only 4 wires to check. If you doubt the harness you made, then all you really should need to do is pull the + bat terminal (off the battery) and check for continuity and shorts between and against these 4 wires. For something like this I use the "beeper" part of the Volt/Ohm meter and just see if it beeps for each of the wires from the alt to the reg, but not between each wire. You should probably pull the wires off the alternator too, just to make sure you don't get reading through the diode bridge inside.

I know Gene's is doing some wacky things - his light is on and flickering all the time. But his battery appears to be charging. Have not focused on that issue yet, but he will soon.

Anyway, enjoy your cruise with the added benefit of some piece of mind. Thanks for keeping us in the know.

Guy Monjure

April 2nd, 2012, 04:48 PM

Roger

I ordered an ignition switch and key cylinder with 2 keys from Macs today. And just to celebrate I bought a pair of new fender top ornaments too.

When we get back I know with you guys help we'll get this wiring right. Its always something simple (once you find out what IT is). Tomorrow I'm going to bring the battery into Autozone to have it checked and charged. That will be it for now.

Thanks
Guy

Guy Monjure

November 1st, 2012, 12:08 PM

Great, I found the forum.

I emptied the 50/50 and pulled all of the old Ford type hose clamps and installed new ones. I had started the engine up after I rebuilt it and all the 50/50 leaked out of the old clamps. The old ones looked correct but I did not have any luck with them sealing. I also washed and dried the engine bay off to get it looking new again.

I need to get the altenator wiring straitghened out new.

Hello to everybody,
Guy

doghows

November 1st, 2012, 12:46 PM

Welcome back Guy. Good to see you did not give up the old girl. Lots of progress on a bunch of different rides. You have a lot of catching up to do on the forums. And by all means fire away with the questions..[thumb]

Guy Monjure

November 2nd, 2012, 02:09 PM

Thanks man, it really felt good to get back into the shop.
Next steps:
Pull the plugs and squirt a little marvel oil into the cyclinders sense shes been setting a while.
Fill her up with new 50/50.
Fix that wiring issue with the altenator conversion. I was looking at it when I was changing out the hose clamps and I have the large yellow 'batt' wire from the back of the altenator going up to the 'A' on the regulator. I am thinking it needs to terminate at the positive side of the soleniod. I have a large black wire connected to the positive side of the soleniod which terminates into a small wire going into the 'A' on the regulator, I think I just need to leave that one as is. Hopefully that will get my battery charging!
As always, everyone is welcome to kick in their thoughts please.

Guy

Guy Monjure

November 8th, 2012, 11:59 AM

I got the new ignition switch and key cylinder installed. I also went through all of my wiring using the diagram from the site below.

http://www.galaxieclub.com/images/alternator-conversion.jpg

I disconnected all of the wires from the starter through to the regulator and verified continuity. Also checked for shorts between wires and found none. Everything looks as it should. The only thing that does not match the above diagram is the wire 'T'ing off of the yellow from the battery side of the solenoid going to the firewall. The diagram shows two wires going to the firewalk and I only have one. But I always have had only one. The pigtall I bought new has continuity between 'A' and 'I', is that correct?

Once I get past this issue I will move on to pulling the gas tank and restoring the truck.

All input is more than welcome,
Guy

Luva65wagon

November 8th, 2012, 01:12 PM

This is sometimes where we all get lost when trying to help. Being there and reading about it is totally different.

There are really only three wires as part of the charging circuit. The fourth wire, from the regulator to the firewall, is not always needed or used. It is for the charging light. Just depends on the car and what it used as a charge indicator before. I always use a dash-mounted volt meter instead of a light or ammeter. If I'm getting above 13.5 volts, it's charging.

So if you had just the three wires (white/white-black/yellow) to the regulator; and a wire between the BAT terminal of the alternator going to the solenoid; and then wire that will "feed" to the ignition switch from the solenoid to the firewall connector; that is all you really need to get this to charge.

Here's another - straighter - image.

Guy Monjure

November 8th, 2012, 04:01 PM

I'm off this Sunday and will try her again. When I started her up this week the starter would not disengauge. The car ran, dragging the starter with it for about a minute and died. I'm going to bring the battery into Auto Zone and have it checked out. I ohmed out the solenoid + to - and it was infinent. I believe the soleniod to be good, so I replaced the ignition switch. Thanks for the input, I know it is hard to help with electrical issues when your not able to see it for yourself.

I am not going to let it stop my restoration this time,
Guy

Luva65wagon

November 12th, 2012, 01:53 PM

Guy - you don't have any club members in your area?

I have not looked at the club directory, but you've gotta have some local club there with a lot of car-nut people. Try to network around and I'll bet you find a dozen guys to come over and oggle your Falcon and help you at the same time.

The dragging starter sounds like you had the start side of the solenoid connected to both the start and the run side of the switch somehow. You should be getting 12 volts to that wire only when in the start position on the switch.

Guy Monjure

November 21st, 2012, 05:46 AM

Good Morning All,
Found the battery dead and brought it to Auto Zone to get charged. It was bad, but still under warrenty so I got a new one. I must have fried it when the starter failed to disengauge on the last start up. I took the new cyclinder back out of the ignition switch and brought it to a Locksmith to have it keyed to the original key. Still waiting for it to return. I decided to buy a new voltage regulator from Napa, (ECH VR440), just in case I fried that too.
Guy

Guy Monjure

November 29th, 2012, 05:35 AM

Still waiting on the key cylinder to come back from the locksmith.

Question, are voltage regulators the same for Ford and GM altenators?

My though is if I have a GM altenator, could that be why the battery is not getting charged?

Good Morning,
Guy

Guy Monjure

November 30th, 2012, 05:36 AM

I got the keys and cylinder back yesterday but the key will not open the doors and truck. The locksmith is coming out to the house next Monday to resolve the problem.

doghows

November 30th, 2012, 08:04 AM

Gotta love the hurry up and wait parts. Hope it all works out for you Guy...

falcon cobra

November 30th, 2012, 08:55 AM

On my 63 the ignition key works the doors and a seperate key opens the trunk....jh

Guy Monjure

November 30th, 2012, 09:38 AM

I looked up two voltage regulators Napa carries. One for Ford and one for GM from the same year and found they are different. I also asked one of the guys at work the difference and he told me one was an 'A' system and the other was a 'B' system. He did not know if GM or Ford was 'A' or 'B'. I am thinking just because I got the altenator out of a 1971 Ford does not mean it is a Ford altenator!

Does anyone know if there is a way to tell a Ford altenator from a GM one?

Is there a way I can find out if I have any other Falcon Club members in my area?

Thanks,
Guy

Guy Monjure

November 30th, 2012, 09:41 AM

Yes, that is the way my keys are set up too. One for the trunk and one for the ignition and doors.

I am glad I named this Thread, "Little @ time", because that is how it is going!!!!!!!

Guy

redfalken

November 30th, 2012, 11:38 AM

Is there a way I can find out if I have any other Falcon Club members in my area?

I'm not much help on the GM vs. Ford alternator info but if you want to see who else is in your area, go to the home page and in the top bar you should see a drop down menu titled "Community". Click on that and there is a link for the "Members List". If the person has filled in their profile, there's a listing of what city they are located in.

Just click on their user name link and you should see a tab for contact information.

Kenny

falcon cobra

November 30th, 2012, 02:11 PM

I don't think there is any difference between GM & ford alts, just the way they fit the bracket that bolts to the motor. you should get a single wire ford alt. just hook it to the battery and go....jh

Guy Monjure

December 1st, 2012, 05:32 AM

Admin help,

I am having to reply to this thread to be able to view the most resent input. Is there some way to correct this?

Guy

Guy Monjure

December 1st, 2012, 05:35 AM

I am thinking of giving up on the external voltage regulated altenator but hate to let it beat me. If I am not careful, it's going to beat me black and blue!

I'll have a look on the home page today.

Thanks,
Guy

redfalken

December 1st, 2012, 10:23 AM

Admin help,

I am having to reply to this thread to be able to view the most resent input. Is there some way to correct this?

Guy

I haven't heard of that happening before. If you're logged on you should be able to see the most recent post. When you go to the website, look near the top of the page under the masthead to the right and it should say "Welcome, Guy Monjure" which means you're logged on. If not, log on and there should be a box that says "remember me" or something like that. This should keep you logged on each time you return to the forum.

Guy Monjure

December 1st, 2012, 02:59 PM

Thanks, remember me fixed it.

Luva65wagon

December 3rd, 2012, 12:53 PM

Guy,

I'm not sure the alternators are exactly the same or not (GM/Ford) when it comes to regulators. They are all the same in what they do and need, but they may tweak things between the two systems and may not work if you use the regulator from a Ford on a GM alt.

Of course, GM also has a one-wire alternator that is a very cheap and common swap.

I'm sorry this has turned out to be such a hassle, but it really should have been pretty simple considering it is only 4 wires to connect and +12 power.

Can you take a picture of this alternator - or have you already?

Guy Monjure

December 7th, 2012, 03:32 PM

Hey Roger, good to hear from you.

I am certain I have the wiring correct, but am not sure what altenator I got, (Ford/GM). I am working to find out! Last time I started her up the starter stuck running. I have just replaced the ignition switch and key cylinder. The switch shorted. The locksmith came over last night and made two sets of keys so the door and ignition would be the same. He also made me two new keys for the trunk.
I currently do not have any way to take pictures. Wife left and took the camera!

Guy

Luva65wagon

December 13th, 2012, 12:12 PM

Wife left and took the camera!

And she ain't comin' back? :WHATTHE:

Previous photo's in this thread showed a couple Ford alternators with a brief discussion on each. Are are one of those the one you used?

Guy Monjure

December 13th, 2012, 02:25 PM

Yes, the post on 11/14/2011. The one in the second picture, at the right on the post page.

She took the computer to so my replys will be coming doing my work weeks.

Guy

Luva65wagon

December 13th, 2012, 02:36 PM

Ah Man... hope it wasn't because of the Falcon! :bicker:

That is a Ford alternator and should have been fully compatible with all the bits you bought and those I sent as well.

Guy Monjure

December 14th, 2012, 10:12 AM

I think I will buy a new voltage regulator from Napa and see if she charges. How can you tell it is a Ford? Just so I will know.
Guy

Luva65wagon

December 17th, 2012, 03:09 PM

How can you tell it is a Ford? Just so I will know.
Guy

Ford guys just know these things. [thumb]

Actually, having seen so many and also once being a parts guy, I'm pretty familiar just by looking at the shape.

falcon cobra

December 23rd, 2012, 05:05 AM

Hey guy I thought this might help....jh

Guy Monjure

January 3rd, 2013, 05:40 AM

Happy New Year to all,

Have not done much over the holidays, but did manage to install the new battery, voltage regulator, and ignition switch. Turned the key and nothing happened. Jumped the solinod and the engine turned over. Going to get a new solinod the week. Get it installed and hope for the best.

Thanks for the help,
Guy

modified17

January 3rd, 2013, 11:14 PM

I don't know if I remember this right or not but I remeber having this problem years ago. You might try swapping the two small wires on the solinoid. I think one wire is from the key to engages the solinoid and the other is to give the coil a straight shot of 12 volts to help the spark on cold starts.

Luva65wagon

January 7th, 2013, 10:53 AM

A simple voltage test can be done rather than trying new part after new part. Pull both little wires off the solenoid. When you turn the key to the start position, make sure the wire to the solenoid with 12 volts to it is the one you put on the 'S' terminal. The 'I' terminal only gets 12 volts - out that terminal - fed from the BAT terminal while in the Start position. This to feed full 12 volts to the coil on start. Once you let off the key to the Run position, the coil gets about 9 volts through the resistance wire from the switch to the coil. The solenoid work is done at that point and at all other times other than START there is nothing happening at the solenoid other than 12 V at the bat terminal (because it is still hooked to the battery) and the 9 V (being fed backwards from the coil) to the 'I' terminal. The voltage there doesn't feed or do anything.

Really sorry this issue is not resolving itself simply.